Oyster to Gatwick

[trevmonk]

Oh dear! I can see lots of new threads in disputes and prosecutions over this.

Yes, the typical scenario of someone who has touched in on Oyster at St Pancras and got to the Thameslink barrier at, say, Harpenden to be told they can't touch out. "But there is a touch out point there!" they say pointing at the barrier. "Ah, that's for a different system sir." the staff tell the passenger. "But I used Oyster to go one stop further to Luton Airport last week!"' "Well, if you would like to continue to Luton and touch out there you can avoid a penalty fare and then buy a single to come back here."

I was in Seoul last week which has a huge transport system. Their Oyster equivalent is valid on metro, buses, taxis, purchases in convenience stores, transport scheme in other cities.... one day.

 

[infobleep]

It hasn't as far as I know.

Perhaps I misheard him regarding contactless but I don't think so.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps I misheard him regarding contactless but I don't think so.

Oyster and the Key are also both 'contact less' tech. Perhaps he was confused...

 

[infobleep]

Oyster and the Key are also both 'contact less' tech. Perhaps he was confused...

Could be the case. After all things keep changing as to what's allowed and not allowed.

With regards to Luton. If someone got off early, would they have committed an offense, even if they didn't leave the station. I. E. Would getting off the train be enough for a fine.

 

[GodAtum]

The guard on my train just made a long announcement about people using Oyster cards beyond East Croydon and if they alight at Gatwick Airport they will face a £25 fine + cost of ticket. However if they come to see him now he can deal with it and they won't be fined.

He also said people with contactless wouldn't be fined, only those holding Oyster cards. I wasn't aware contactless had reached Gatwick Airport until then.

What other stations is it valid to on the Brighton mainline?

Perhaps he meant Southern's Key card?

 

[34D]

Could be the case. After all things keep changing as to what's allowed and not allowed.

With regards to Luton. If someone got off early, would they have committed an offense, even if they didn't leave the station. I. E. Would getting off the train be enough for a fine.

No. As the NRCOC gives us the right to change trains and break our journey, including getting off trains for no reason and boarding the following one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Perhaps off topic to this thread, but has any progress been made extending oyster to the four stations on the Shepperton branch? Whether zone 7 or otherwise?

 

[sarahj]

Doing it to Gatwick, and then Merstham,Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley later is a recipe for disaster.

As for my colleague I'm sure they are just a bit confused.

At the moment,
Whats not valid beyond East Croydon/ Coulsdon South.
Oysters
Freedom passes
Zip Cards
If you tapped in with a contactless debit/credit card.
6 Zone travel cards

What is
A Valid Key Card
A valid rail ticket

We have recently been asked to make announcements to this fact (I already did), but the bumf only mentions Oysters.:roll:

 

[infobleep]

Doing it to Gatwick, and then Merstham,Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley later is a recipe for disaster.

As for my colleague I'm sure they are just a bit confused.

At the moment,
Whats not valid beyond East Croydon/ Coulsdon South.
Oysters
Freedom passes
Zip Cards
If you tapped in with a contactless debit/credit card.
6 Zone travel cards

What is
A Valid Key Card
A valid rail ticket

We have recently been asked to make announcements to this fact (I already did), but the bumf only mentions Oysters.:roll:

I don't blame your colleague for being confused, given things change every 5 minutes it seems.

I did think the longer announcements were helpful but clearly they need to try and be accurate. Although I can appreciate if they are not it may not actually be their fault! Such as being given documents that don't contain the full facts.

Are there technical problems stopping the roll out to stations other than Gatwick Airport or is it just political?

 

[sarahj]

I don't blame your colleague for being confused, given things change every 5 minutes it seems.

I did think the longer announcements were helpful but clearly they need to try and be accurate. Although I can appreciate if they are not it may not actually be their fault! Such as being given documents that don't contain the full facts.

Are there technical problems stopping the roll out to stations other than Gatwick Airport or is it just political?

As I've said before, dont ask me, I only work here.

The only issue I can think of is, if you have extend to Gatwick, what about the other stations, if Redhill, why not Reigate. Just saying valid to Gatwick opens up a whole can of worms. and then you have the valid on mess, will a oyster be southern only, any permitted, and and and...... But Boris is known for making grand announcements that have not been thought through. (24hr tube being at the top of the list)

 

[button_boxer]

Are there technical problems stopping the roll out to stations other than Gatwick Airport or is it just political?

Until they move Oyster processing to the back office there isn't capacity to add enough "special" fare zones to the system for all the intermediate stops.

 

[infobleep]

As I've said before, dont ask me, I only work here.

The only issue I can think of is, if you have extend to Gatwick, what about the other stations, if Redhill, why not Reigate. Just saying valid to Gatwick opens up a whole can of worms. and then you have the valid on mess, will a oyster be southern only, any permitted, and and and...... But Boris is known for making grand announcements that have not been thought through. (24hr tube being at the top of the list)

They could just cover off places such as Reigate by saying there will always be winners and losers when any changes are made.

 

[JaJaWa]

I believe GTR will be marketing it as valid on Gatwick Express only to help avoid confusion, but technically it should be valid on any train between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport.

I was in Seoul last week which has a huge transport system. Their Oyster equivalent is valid on metro, buses, taxis, purchases in convenience stores, transport scheme in other cities.... one day.

Contactless debit and credit cards are valid on all of those here, which is what TfL sees as the future of Oyster.

 

[yorkie]

I believe GTR will be marketing it as valid on Gatwick Express only to help avoid confusion, but technically it should be valid on any train between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport.

I agree with you it would be valid on any train between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport, as although the Conditions of Carriage allow tickets to be restricted to one Train Company, such a restriction would be to all GTR services.

 

[Kite159]

Knowing GTR, The oyster fare to Gatwick will probably be a token amount (say £1) cheaper than the "any permitted" ticket which they like selling to confused tourists to push them onto the airport express.

So a paper London - Gatwick "southern" or "thameslink" only will be cheaper.

 

[yorkie]

That wouldn't surprise me. But people will still pay it - at least once - because they will assume PAYG is cheaper*.

We're often told things like "Pay as you go fares are cheaper than cash" (source), so the off peak single fare would need to be no greater than £7.65 to keep within that claim (ie, less than half of the Off Peak Day Return fare of £15.40).

I bet GTR want it to be priced rather higher though, so we need to be ready to mobilise a campaign against them if they do.

* I know there are already examples where PAYG is not cheaper, but these tend to be for e.g. Railcard holders rather than the through, undiscounted fare.

 

[Kite159]

It will probably be set at the same level as the special Gatwick Express tickets you can buy (or used to be able to buy) on the likes of Easyjet/Ryanair coming into Gatwick as they offer a "saving" against the regular walk-up ticket for the speedy Express.

 

[MikeWh]

I believe GTR will be marketing it as valid on Gatwick Express only to help avoid confusion, but technically it should be valid on any train between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport.

This is comical!

Conditions of Carriage allow tickets to be restricted to one Train Company, but that would be to all GTR services, so any Penalty Fare issued for using a GTR train of the wrong type of 'brand' would be null & void in my opinion.

Woah! Slow down yorkie.

There's a world of difference between marketing policy and revenue protection policy. If GTR say it is only valid on the Express, but don't object to people using it on the normal services as long as they don't try and use it between Coulsdon and Gatwick, then that is fine by me. Marketing it as valid on the Express only looks like a reasonable way of minimising confusion over it not being valid intermediately.

There are battles we need to fight in this area, but speculating on what might happen before an announcement is made is not really going to be helpful.

 

[JaJaWa]

Agreed. Looks like we may only be seeing the PAYG extension to Gatwick now as the lack of immediate stations to Luton Airport would be too confusing.

Don't hold out hope for Luton though, more zones can be added next year!

 

[island]

Can we please, please, please not derail yet another thread with quibbling over the status of Gatwick Express tickets?

 

[radamfi]

On the Intercty Direct service from Amsterdam to Breda, there is a supplement for using the high speed line between Schiphol airport and Rotterdam. This is dealt with by having an additional reader on the platforms at the four stations where the train stops. Maybe you could do the same with platform readers at Gatwick and Victoria?

 

[bb21]

Can we please, please, please not derail yet another thread with quibbling over the status of Gatwick Express tickets?

Yes, agreed. Can we not reopen that can of worms again please? There are plenty of past threads to do it in.

On the subject of Oyster extension to the airports and not intermediately, I maintain my opinion that it is an idea that came out of someone's backside, poorly thought out, and poorly implemented. It's simply asking for trouble.

We have this new payment processing technology for Oyster, which just takes a little longer to iron out the teething problems, and once mature, can handle much more complex journeys and avoid all these foreseeable problems, yet some politicians can't seem to help themselves meddling with the whole affair in an area they know nothing about and have to stick their stinking snouts in.

I am dreading all the threads I can see popping up in the Disputes area before long. :roll:

 

[jon0844]

It could be a good thing to have some disputes and then see how the industry can 'defend' such a bizarre set up. How can you have Oyster that was always touch in, touch out, suddenly not working at stations in the middle of a route?

I know you had St Pancras to Stratford International that was outside the Oyster card system (and indeed the zones) but that wasn't quite the same - as Oyster didn't work on HS1 at all. Now that's been, sort of, fixed but is also a bodge as it should just become part of the normal zones.

 

[mattdickinson]

It could be a good thing to have some disputes and then see how the industry can 'defend' such a bizarre set up. How can you have Oyster that was always touch in, touch out, suddenly not working at stations in the middle of a route?

I know you had St Pancras to Stratford International that was outside the Oyster card system (and indeed the zones) but that wasn't quite the same - as Oyster didn't work on HS1 at all. Now that's been, sort of, fixed but is also a bodge as it should just become part of the normal zones.

When Oyster PAYG was first introduced, for example, it was valid between Euston and Queens Park, but not at South Hampstead or Kilburn High Road.

 

[infobleep]

When Oyster PAYG was first introduced, for example, it was valid between Euston and Queens Park, but not at South Hampstead or Kilburn High Road.

Would they keep stats of hang many people got penalty charge notices during that period or were people simply told to revised their trains to Queens Park or Euston?

 

[hassaanhc]

When Oyster PAYG was first introduced, for example, it was valid between Euston and Queens Park, but not at South Hampstead or Kilburn High Road.

Surely it wasn't valid on the direct Silverlink service though, instead having to use LUL via Baker Street? EDIT: After checking, it seems that was indeed allowed that way Got confused with journeys like Stratford to Richmond, Blackhorse Road to Barking, Lewisham to London Bridge etc. not being allowed on the direct National Rail services

 

[34D]

Agreed. Looks like we may only be seeing the PAYG extension to Gatwick now as the lack of immediate stations to Luton Airport would be too confusing.

Don't hold out hope for Luton though, more zones can be added next year!

I think most forum members would rather that the existing zones 7 8 and 9 were used as appropriate.

The sooner oyster is ditched and replaced with itso the better.

 

[Via Bank]

The sooner oyster is ditched and replaced with itso the better.

Let us not pretend that ITSO is some chimera of perfection when it comes to smart ticketing. It certainly isn't. (Case in point: look at all the variations on The Key, or the Stagecoach "Smart" cards, all of which in the latter case look identical but have different ISAM modules, and are therefore nominally incompatible.)

If we get back on topic: frankly it is an embarrassment and a disgrace for all parties involved that Oyster extension to two key London airports has taken so long already. The extension should have been done when, or shortly after, Oyster was rolled out to all National Rail services in the zones.

Of course, now it has taken so long (and now back-office Oyster processing has been delayed) there are mountains of other implementation issues. Perhaps if this had been at least proposed or agreed upon in principle in 2010, coordinating the extension in tandem with back-office Oyster wouldn't have been such a challenge.

(A cynic could also suggest that the three TOCs at the time might have not been able to rake in as many penalty fares from passengers who believed these two London airports would be part of the London zonal system.)

 

[mattdickinson]

The gateline displays at Potters Bar say "Cards/Tickets" rather than "ITSO/Tickets", so Oyster there at least may be coming soon.

 

[sarahj]

Cannot find original thread. Can be merged if needed.

Info has gone up at work about the Oyster extension to Gatwick. The date of operation has not been confirmed, but it will cover the intermediate stations between Coulsdon South and Gatwick. Some fares are now showing on TVM's and readers etc are going in.

Will be the end of a nice little earner selling £5.20 fares.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

My gut feeling is that it will be Gatwick Express trains only as Southern have their own smartcards (The Key)