Oyster to Gatwick

[clagmonster]

What may add to this is recently I travelled from East Croydon to Victoria in the early hours using PAYG. The train arrived at platform 13. The gates to reach the other gatelines were closed with no staff available (the gates were locked open). On tapping a barrier at the GatEx gateline, I got error 36.

No inboundary paper Travelcards work the barriers at Victoria platforms 13 and 14.

When I have arrived at said platforms during more sociable hours, the barrier staff have directed passengers with Oyster and Travelcards to the other barriers.

One other question, I wonder what will happen on the occasions when a GatEx train arrives at another platform than 13 or 14. Will passengers be undercharged, or will a way be found to direct them to the correct gateline or otherwise ching them up?

 

[talldave]

No inboundary paper Travelcards work the barriers at Victoria platforms 13 and 14.

Are you sure? Up until April this year I've been using them for years on Gatwick Express. Unless they've recently reprogrammed the barriers I'd assume they still work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure? Up until April this year I've been using them for years on Gatwick Express. Unless they've recently reprogrammed the barriers I'd assume they still work.

I do know those barriers reject through tickets past Victoria (even though these are[1] valid on GatEx), which is a right nuisance, particularly as the staff seem to insist you try a barrier first (thus causing a blockage) even if you know full well it didn't work last time or the time before.

[1] Without any debate, either; they were also valid when GatEx actually was a TOC.

 

[andrewkeith5]

I do know those barriers reject through tickets past Victoria (even though these are[1] valid on GatEx), which is a right nuisance, particularly as the staff seem to insist you try a barrier first (thus causing a blockage) even if you know full well it didn't work last time or the time before.



[1] Without any debate, either; they were also valid when GatEx actually was a TOC.

They do accept a lot of mine - I think their fundamental programming is to reject anything that isn't routed any permitted in my experience

 

[clagmonster]

Are you sure? Up until April this year I've been using them for years on Gatwick Express. Unless they've recently reprogrammed the barriers I'd assume they still work.

From around April to September I used several in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 - Gatwick. None worked the barriers. They worked barriers elsewhere. Unless they had a block on railcard discounted tickets each time, although I have arrived on Southern branded trains and passengers with Travelcards have been instructed to use the inner suburban gateline.

 

[andrewkeith5]

From around April to September I used several in conjunction with a Boundary Zone 6 - Gatwick. None worked the barriers. They worked barriers elsewhere. Unless they had a block on railcard discounted tickets each time, although I have arrived on Southern branded trains and passengers with Travelcards have been instructed to use the inner suburban gateline.

Interesting - it is possibly that it was railcard related, I am constantly having perfectly valid tickets rejected by the non-express gate line because I've got a railcard, it's absolutely infuriating and no matter how many times they promise me it'll change it never does!

 

[clagmonster]

Sadly I've now cleared my plastic pigs and am no longer eligible for a YP so I shall be unable to replicate the experiment. If I am there with a Network Rail discounted Travelcard and a Southern branded service uses one of the platforms I shall see what happens.

 

[Starmill]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, stop. The Oyster PAYG fare on Gatwick express will be £19.80 as mentioned in the document posted

Yes? And? 2*£19.80 PAYG singles is rather more than the £34.90 SOR.

I think the first part of your question has been answered at least three times already.... The gate lines at Victoria are separate, and when they are used by the others services the gates are usually either open or passage is allowed into the other gate line.

Do we actually have a source for that?

 

[andrewkeith5]

Yes? And? 2*£19.80 PAYG singles is rather more than the £34.90 SOR.




Do we actually have a source for that?

Unfortunately Oyster is pretty useless when it comes to return fares and obviously Southern/DfT turned out to be the better negotiators.....

And I doubt we have an official source for the split between express and non express fares, but we do have a source saying both exist and almost everyone here agrees that the gate lines are the only logical way for it to work, and that they would work in the vast majority of cases, and that the remaining cases wouldn't really be that difficult to deal with sorting out.

Feel free to ask TfL if you'd like.....as I can't think of any other way it could be done, and the way proposed would work, I'm happy with that until we get an official explanation..... If there isn't a way to get the southern/other fares then I imagine either the DfT is about to get a massive revenue boost or almost nobody except visitors to the country will use it - no different to now except that TfL will lose the many maximum fares that people unknowingly using oyster pay and DfT will lose 20p per oyster journey.

So it's in their interest to make the non-express fares available....

 

[talldave]

Interesting - it is possibly that it was railcard related, I am constantly having perfectly valid tickets rejected by the non-express gate line because I've got a railcard, it's absolutely infuriating and no matter how many times they promise me it'll change it never does!

You're dealing with Southern who excel at incompetence, so prepare to be disappointed for a long time. Even when they do understand the issue, they'll not really care. When they do eventually roll out an update, they'll inexplicably undo it again with a further rollout at a later date and then deny that it was ever fixed in the first place.

I had all this aggro with them at the start of the year when TVMs wouldn't accept Annual Gold Cards for 9.30am travel. It's like a game of IT roulette.

 

[MikeWh]

Unfortunately Oyster is pretty useless when it comes to return fares and obviously Southern/DfT turned out to be the better negotiators.....

Up until now Oyster has been very good with return fares. When originally set in 2010 the single was half the current return, both anytime and off-peak. In terms of anytime fares it is still true that the single Oyster fare is significantly cheaper than the paper equivalent but two of them are a little cheaper than the paper return. This is not a problem as the vast majority of journeys are in fact return, so no major loss.

But, at Gatwick Airport the number of people only travelling one way becomes far more significant. I don't have a magic bullet to solve this problem, but it's a little OTT to say that Oyster is useless for return fares.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Up until now Oyster has been very good with return fares. When originally set in 2010 the single was half the current return, both anytime and off-peak. In terms of anytime fares it is still true that the single Oyster fare is significantly cheaper than the paper equivalent but two of them are a little cheaper than the paper return. This is not a problem as the vast majority of journeys are in fact return, so no major loss.

But, at Gatwick Airport the number of people only travelling one way becomes far more significant. I don't have a magic bullet to solve this problem, but it's a little OTT to say that Oyster is useless for return fares.

I'm not sure I can agree - I accept that it works with what we have currently, but that's just conveniently because either the fares were setup to be little different whether you purchased two singles or one return, or were changed to be that way. Sadly, the further you get from London the less this is actually the case.

The Oyster system, AFAIK, is not capable of identifying what we would consider a return journey and adjusting the fare charged when it does. Unlike, for example, the Key (at least as far as Southern have programmed it) where keyGo is able to identify that you've made a complete return journey and charge you the appropriate fare.

 

[Stats]

Lets not forget that GTR have a commitment to introduce single-leg pricing in 2016 so the return fares may not be relevant.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Lets not forget that GTR have a commitment to introduce single-leg pricing in 2016 so the return fares may not be relevant.

Really? Oh wow, we're in for a serious ripping off then....

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Oyster system, AFAIK, is not capable of identifying what we would consider a return journey and adjusting the fare charged when it does.

No, it isn't, which is why the single fares are set as they are. But given that Oyster was largely designed to be a Travelcard-style product it doesn't usually matter; price capping takes care of most of the issues.

Gatwick Junction is a different issue because most people going to the airport will not be returning the same day. Oyster cannot detect a period return, but then IIRC The Key can't either.

 

[Dent]

They seem to be somewhat overselling the supposed "convenience". Particularly so given that the difficulty of sorting things out if something goes wrong means that it is often not actually convenient at all. For one-time visitors to London there is the added inconvenience of having to get the Oyster deposit and unused credit refunded, itself not a trivial task.

Given that the supposed "convenience" is the only selling point of using Oyster to Gatwick, and the fares are higher, is it really worth paying so much over the odds for the chance that the journey might be slightly more convenient unless anything goes wrong?

 

[radamfi]

I've always been in favour of phasing out returns, especially the way it is done in Britain where a single is often almost the same price as a return, because it makes triangular trips extremely expensive unless you get creative with routings and/or excesses. You get penalised too if you get a lift one-way or use coach for the other direction. Or say, fly from Gatwick to Amsterdam, then fly to Manchester and then get the train back to London. For long distance trips you are forced into an Advance, but for shorter trips that is often not even an option. When the Dutch converted to a nationwide smartcard system they also made a return twice the single, although the return didn't give that much of a discount over two singles anyway. Obviously returns at twice the single is the norm outside of the UK.

 

[LexyBoy]

I'd be happy if singles were half the price of the return - not if returns were twice the price of a single.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've always been in favour of phasing out returns, especially the way it is done in Britain where a single is often almost the same price as a return, because it makes triangular trips extremely expensive unless you get creative with routings and/or excesses.

But for the vast majority of people doing an out and back day trip, they'll have to buy two separate 'matching' day tickets. Then of course the current generation of TVMs won't even offer the return journey. I wonder what overall percentage of ticket sales are to people doing triangular journeys?

So massive queues are now generated at the other end of the route, as suddenly nearly every day tripper needs to buy a single to come home...

Hopefully they can go for 'single leg pricing' without removing the ability to buy an 'out and back pair' at once.

 

[JaJaWa]

I suspect the move would be to a system such as a return costing 10p less than two singles, rather than the current set up of some singles costing 10p less than a return.

 

[radamfi]

But for the vast majority of people doing an out and back day trip, they'll have to buy two separate 'matching' day tickets.

There's no reason why you still can't get a ticket for there and back if you want at the beginning. You still queue once and you have one transaction. You can call it a "return" if you want. It just costs the same as a single each way.

Another advantage of single pricing which I forgot to mention is that you only pay the peak fare once if you travel off-peak in the opposite direction. At the moment, with an Anytime (Day) Return you pay the same whether you travel peak once or twice.

 

[sheff1]

They seem to be somewhat overselling the supposed "convenience". Particularly so given that the difficulty of sorting things out if something goes wrong means that it is often not actually convenient at all. For one-time visitors to London there is the added inconvenience of having to get the Oyster deposit and unused credit refunded, itself not a trivial task.

For one off visitors to London arriving at Gatwick it will be convenient to load £xx on an Oyster and use that for all public transport journeys during their stay. When they get back to Gatwick they can dispose of the card. A few pounds unspent is small change in the context of the full cost of the visit - flights/hotels/meals/admission costs etc etc

Ideally the deposit and any outstanding balance on the disposed crads will go to charity (as with the unwanted currency boxes at airports) - is that planned ?

 

[radamfi]

For one off visitors to London arriving at Gatwick it will be convenient to load £xx on an Oyster and use that for all public transport journeys during their stay.

Many such people will also have the option of contactless bank cards, as many such cards issued outside the UK will also work, which gets around the problem of having a surplus at the end of the trip.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've always been in favour of phasing out returns, especially the way it is done in Britain where a single is often almost the same price as a return, because it makes triangular trips extremely expensive unless you get creative with routings and/or excesses. You get penalised too if you get a lift one-way or use coach for the other direction. Or say, fly from Gatwick to Amsterdam, then fly to Manchester and then get the train back to London. For long distance trips you are forced into an Advance, but for shorter trips that is often not even an option. When the Dutch converted to a nationwide smartcard system they also made a return twice the single, although the return didn't give that much of a discount over two singles anyway. Obviously returns at twice the single is the norm outside of the UK.

Not that doing such a thing would be popular. It would drastically increase the cost of the majority of non season ticket journeys (as most people don't do triangular trips or get a lift / coach one way).

 

[IslandDweller]

Overselling the supposed convenience? Have you seen the queues at the ticket office (and machines) at Gatwick? Or Victoria. This will be a huge time saver. Bring it on.

 

[radamfi]

Not that doing such a thing would be popular. It would drastically increase the cost of the majority of non season ticket journeys (as most people don't do triangular trips or get a lift / coach one way).

Would it? There would be a loss in revenue from people who currently buy singles getting a massive price cut, but there would be extra revenue from people currently scared off by the high singles, and possibly from people upgrading from Advance single to walk-on single. If indeed the vast majority of people are on seasons or getting returns, then there would not be much of a change in revenue anyway.

There may not even need to be an increase in the return (2 x single) fares to make this revenue neutral or if an increase is necessary, it would probably be very small. Return fares have not generally increased massively up to now where Oyster has been implemented.

 

[sheff1]

Many such people will also have the option of contactless bank cards, as many such cards issued outside the UK will also work, which gets around the problem of having a surplus at the end of the trip.

True, but using contactless cards may well result in foreign currency transaction fees (depending on the card issuer) which could quickly mount up if you are charged one for each journey.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Would it? There would be a loss in revenue from people who currently buy singles getting a massive price cut, but there would be extra revenue from people currently scared off by the high singles, and possibly from people upgrading from Advance single to walk-on single. If indeed the vast majority of people are on seasons or getting returns, then there would not be much of a change in revenue anyway.

There may not even need to be an increase in the return (2 x single) fares to make this revenue neutral or if an increase is necessary, it would probably be very small. Return fares have not generally increased massively up to now where Oyster has been implemented.

Of course it would! I'll give an example that would affect me.
An off peak day return from Bath Spa to Cardiff Central with my railcard is currently £13.05. The off peak day single is £13. If you got rid of the return and I had to buy two singles that would then be £26, pretty much doubling the cost. Isn't that obvious?
Most peoples journeys are similar point to point journeys. For those who do not have a season ticket (so basically those whose journeys are for personal trips rather than commuting) then scrapping returns would make their journeys roughly a lot more expensive for them.

edit:
Hold on, you are talking about revenue from the railways point of view? I am talking from a passenger point of view!
And anyway, if you pretty much double the cost of a journey, less passengers will travel. I'd no idea if the reduction in passenger numbers would strip away the additional revenue from the extra ticket costs though. That is for an accountant / statistician / whatever to work out!

 

[radamfi]

True, but using contactless cards may well result in foreign currency transaction fees (depending on the card issuer) which could quickly mount up if you are charged one for each journey.

Your account only gets charged once per day if you use contactless. Ideally, anyone using their card abroad for card purchases would only get charged on a percentage basis with no minimum charge. Certainly for UK cardholders such cards are readily available, and some don't charge at all, although some cards do charge a minimum charge per transaction and those should be avoided. It would be interesting to know the situation with foreign cards.

 

[sheff1]

Of course it would! I'll give an example that would affect me.
An off peak day return from Bath Spa to Cardiff Central with my railcard is currently £13.05. The off peak day single is £13. If you got rid of the return and I had to buy two singles that would then be £26, pretty much doubling the cost. Isn't that obvious?
Most peoples journeys are similar point to point journeys. For those who do not have a season ticket (so basically those whose journeys are for personal trips rather than commuting) then scrapping returns would make their journeys roughly a lot more expensive for them.

The suggestion is that, in this case, the single would be £6.55 (or possibly slightly more). As stated, most people make a return journey not a succesion of singles ending up somewhere other than their starting point.