Oyster with Railcard

[General Zod]

I think so.

TfL have decided to unfairly extract more cash out of their customers by defining some journeys as "requiring" travel via Zone 1, even if they never enter Zone 1. However if you do all that touching in and out then it should count it as seperate journeys and charge and cap accordingly. In theory. Perhaps someone with experience of this can confirm?

Hi folks,
Just a short recap. I got my Y-P Railcard deduction put onto my Oyster Card a few weeks back, It was done at Finchley Road tube station and must have taken less than 3 minutes. Very quick and efficient !
I put the "railcard discount capping" to the test yesterday. Started off with the sum total of £0.80 on my Oyster. Added £3 at Wembley Central so total on Oyster was £3.80


My journey was as follows :

1. Wembley Central - Hackney Central ( prior to 19:00, LU + London Overground, changing at Willeseden Junction). £1.80 deducted, £2.00 left on card.

2. Hackney Central - Finchley Road & Frognal (after 19:00, London Overground). £1.00 deducted, £1.00 left on card.

3. Finchley Road - Ruislip (after 19:00 , London Underground). £0.00 deducted, £1.00 left on card.

So the whole expedition cost the princely sum of £2.80 which is the correct amount as listed in the fares guide.


EDIT : I just done a search on the TFL "Fare Finder" page for Ruislip (London Uunderground) to Hackney Central ( London Overground ). It came out with the following results :

=========================================

Ruislip - Hackney Central

Oyster single fare
£1.80 Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900*
£1.00 At all other times including public holidays.
------------------------------------------------
Cash single fare
£3.00 At any time.
=========================================


So in theory the return journey can cost you as little as £2.00 ???
The fares suggest that the route to be used cannot traverse through Zone 1.
If you go via Finchley Rd Tube and then Finchley Rd + Frognal you will have to touch out at Finchley Road and touch in at Finchley Rd + Frognal and hence will be charged for two journeys and the total fare will be more than the £1.00 / £1.80 listed above.
If according to the above I only pay £1.00 / £1.80 for the journey, it means I have to use a route which involves touching in at Ruislip, touching out at Hackney , no touching out / in at immediate stations and I MUST NOT travel through zone 1. Changing at Finchley Rd and Finchley Road + Frognal is out of the question as I will have to touch out and in again and get charged for two journeys. So for which route is this £1.80 / £1.00 ticket valid ? Obviously I cannot go into Central London ( ZONE 1) and then up to Highbury + Islington to change for London Overground. I am trying to think of a route which would involve not exiting the station in addition to allowing me to change trains at a London Overground station which has a LU interchange and does not require me to travel through zone 1 to reach it ! ???
Any suggestions for this route ??? The TFL journey planner suggests the Finchley Rd, changing at Finchley Rd + Frognal route but then I will get charged twice and the fare will be more than £1.80 / £1.00. Would I be forced to get the London Overground from Gunnersbury having changed at Rayners Lane, Acton Town and Turnham Green en route for the £1.80 / £1.00 fare to be valid or even use Ruislip - Rayners Lane - Earls Court - Kensington Olympia - Willeseden Jnc - Hackney Central ?

Cheers,

Zod

 

[yorkie]

This sort of nonsense is why I just use a travelcard! No worries then!

As for counting it as 2 journeys if you change at Finchley Road to Finchley Road & Frognall, that's just ludicrous and proves what a joke the whole system is, quite frankly. :roll:

I also like to know what the cost of a journey is before I make it, and there should be no opportunity for the TOCs to increase the cost without your consent.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's a rather broad statement tbh.

What is?

For starters, most people probably aren't going to go around using a combination of PAYG and nPAYG routes willy nilly without knowing in advance.

If people do know in advance, that they are going to require routes that don't accept PAYG then they are probably better off with a Travelcard in the first place.

If people do not know in advance what journeys they are making, which you say is the minority of people, then I recognise PAYG can potentially be a good thing and may be suitable for some people, although I personally won't use it because I don't like the way they overcharge people (eg. in Zod's example) and I personally don't like the way the cap works (ie. the cap isn't really a cap unless you always touch in/out and don't use any non-PAYG routes).

For example, what if somebody from North London is quite happily travelling around using PAYG on their Oyster, and then later in the day is invited to a friends somewhere along a nPAYG rail route in South London? Obviously they will have to purchase a seperate ticket.

Yes, they will.

But by your thinking, the person should, on the basis of knowing that they have a friend who lives near a nPAYG rail station in South London and could potentially get invited there on the off chance on a day when they have already travelled, purchase a travelcard 'just in case'? Erm, no.

No. I asked "So effectively you are saying that anyone who thinks they may require a non-PAYG route would be better off with PAYG anyway and then faff around with seperate tickets if/when they need to use non-PAYG routes?"

In your example, you are describing a situation where someone does not think they will require a non-PAYG route, and asking me if they should have bought a Travelcard instead. My response is that if PAYG is best for them normally, and had no reason to think they'd need a non-PAYG route, then obviously they are going to be 'caught out' and probably have to pay more than the Travelcard fare, which is unfair and exactly the point I am trying to make.

 

[General Zod]

Yorkie,
I have to agree with some of your scepticism.
Consider this route which I do often :
Wembley Central - Snaresbrook

Oyster single fare
£2.50 Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900*
£2.00 At all other times including public holidays.

This dictates that you go via Zone 1 but you can go via Willesden Jnc - Stratford, which is more convenient, but will get charged the same fare. The cost of the return journey there and back with my YP railcard cap will be based on 1-4 travel which will be £3.50. However, I do not want to travel in zone 1 and only want z2-6 travel ( Wembley Central - Willesden Jnc - Stratford - Snaresbrook ) and the cap for those zones with a YPRC discount should be £2.80. But I am not allowed this option on Oyster. So the only way around the anomaly is to buy the "cash" RCD zone 2-6 Travelcard. Is the price £2.80 or more and can you still purchase it from the machines or ticket office ?
There is a way of getting the £2.80 cap on this route and that would be by touching out and then touching in again at an intermediate station, thus alerting the "system" that I am only travelling within z2-6 and between z2-6 stations. Alas this will lead to extended journey times.

Here is another quirk.

Acton Central - Stratford
Oyster single fare
£2.50 Monday to Friday from 0700 and before 1900*
£2.00 At all other times including public holidays.

Cash single fare £4.00 At any time.

In reality you can go direct from Acton Central (z3) {NLL} Stratford(z3) only crossing through zone 2, so your fare should be £1.80, 0700 -1900 and £1.00 outside these hours, but infact it is £2.50 / £2.00. So I take it that this route is defined as "requiring travel through zone 1" , i.e Acton Central (NLL) Gunnersbury (District) Mile End (Central) Stratford ?
Nice of them to set this fare, even though there is a more direct and quicker route ( Acton Central - Willesden Jnc -Stratford via NLL) which would be calculated as cheaper under the zonal pricing system.

 

[yorkie]

Zod - I take it you are getting these fares by searching on the TfL site. But I do wonder if there is a map or diagram of all the routes that "require Zone 1" as they say? Or, in other words, where are the boundaries that these "rules" apply? I suspect the only way to find out is to do a search.

I did a few searches and found that Kew Gardens to Hackney Wick is £1, but Willesden Junction to Stratford (a shorter distance) is £2.50. Kensal Rise to Stratford is £1. Is the NLL really that bad in TfL's eyes that a passenger from Willesden Jn to Stratford would really want to pay a £1.50 premium to take a train to Euston and then walk to Euston Square and then change again at Liverpool Street? by all means give people the option but to force this on them is daft.

So, you can go from Kew Gardens along the NLL for £1, and you can arrive at Stratford along the NLL for £1 but if you travel too far along the NLL you get penalised. Touching in/out intermediately saves 50p, but I don't know if you can do this anywhere and manage to get back on the same train.


here's another thought...

the fare from Richmond to Highbury & Islington is £1.80 (£1 off peak). To me, the logical route is changing at Vauxhall. Now, I realise this isn't valid yet on PAYG, but if this route is available on PAYG in future, what would they do? Would this journey suddenly increase in price as a result irrespective of the route taken?


Gunnersbury to Highbury & Islington is £1. But a logical route might actually to change at Victoria for the Victoria line. If someone does this, will they still be charged £1? It seems more likely to me that someone will go via Zone 1 on this journey than on Willesden to Stratford, but TfL disagrees.

 

[General Zod]

Yes Yorkie I am using the Tfl site for all the fare info.
Just to clear something up. If a fare is £2.50 ( 0700-1900) £2.00 other times, £4.00 max cash fare is the price this high because the journey has been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 ? If so then they have got the Willesden Jnc - Stratford fare totally wrong. I cannot imagine, as you correctly said, that someone would want to go into Euston and then onto Liverpool St and Stratford instead of just catching the NLL ??!!!
I can go from Ruislip ( Zone 5 Piccadilly Line) - Hackney Central for £1, whereas Willesden Jnc - Stratford is £2 !!!!????????