Pacers on Esk Valley Line

[Marton]

Yes, that is an odd service if it runs in the new timetable. As well as missing out Geeat Ayton, it also terminates in the middle of a token section. I am not sure why it diesnt terminate at either Battersby or Glaisdale. I have thought for a few years niw that a fairly regular service terminating at Battersby might be a reasonable option if we are not going to get the eight trains a day to Whitby.

According to the EVCRC newletter it’s about timing. Today’s Danby service was late arriving and departing so glaisdale would be a high risk.

Battersby is in the midddle of nowhere. One of the lowest usages on the line, and Gt Ayton is a long way from the village. I can’t see it being much used other than by returning walkers as it is no use for commuters. It’s too early and there’s is no morning service.

I See there was a fall over this morning with no early nunthorpe hexham service and a cancelled 1208 arrival from Hexham and subsequent departure. Cited reasons were depot and train crew issues.

Have Northern overstretched?

 

[bearhugger]

I See there was a fall over this morning with no early nunthorpe hexham service and a cancelled 1208 arrival from Hexham and subsequent departure. Cited reasons were depot and train crew issues.

Have Northern overstretched?

I noticed the early morning cancellation too, there was a train I wanted to get from Stockton yesterday lunchtime that was cancelled and one I could have used to get to work today that was cancelled too. We shall see what happens next week when things *should* hopefully settle down after the strikes.

 

[bearhugger]

The theory is it serves the NYM Centre at Danby.

Is this unique in terminating mid section on a single line?

I don't know whether it's unique or not but I wonder how/if this will affect the token machine system on the line. The tokens are exchanged by hand at Nunthorpe signal box and at machines at Battersby, Glaisdale & Whitby. Looking at the photo, I assume the token is put into one side from the previous section and taken out of the other side for the next section, and all tokens will eventually do a big rotation through the machines and signal box so things should be even/equal in the machines.
With the new service terminating at Danby mid-section between Battersby & Glaisdale, I imagine there will be an uneven/skewed buildup of tokens over time that will need re-arranging at some point? Could a situation arise (in theory at least) where there might not be a token available for the driver between Glaisdale & Battersby? Or have I got how the system works wrong?

Battersby Token Machine

• bearhugger
• 23 May 2018

 

[ainsworth74]

With the new service terminating at Danby mid-section between Battersby & Glaisdale, I imagine there will be an uneven/skewed buildup of tokens over time that will need re-arranging at some point?

It shouldn't be an issue. You'll remove a token at Battersby (lets say from the left hand token instrument in your picture I'm not sure which is which actually!) to give you authority to proceed into the Battersby to Glaisdale section. Then drive to Danby and back then put the same token back in the same instrument (the left hand instrument again). The two instruments in the picture will each control one section of track (Battersby to Glaisdale for one of them and Battersby to Nunthorpe for the other) so you won't need to put the token back into a different instrument. In theory the token from one instrument in that picture shouldn't fit into the other as it should only be compatible with the pair of instruments controlling the relevant section (i.e. when you take a token out of the instrument at Battersby it should only fit into the instrument at Glaisdale)!

 

[ainsworth74]

Could a situation arise (in theory at least) where there might not be a token available for the driver between Glaisdale & Battersby?

I believe that this has happened in the past in areas where token instruments are used and the solution has been for a man in a van to come along remove a load of tokens from the instrument with too many and then drive them to the instrument that needs more and insert them into it!

 

[bramling]

I don't know whether it's unique or not but I wonder how/if this will affect the token machine system on the line. The tokens are exchanged by hand at Nunthorpe signal box and at machines at Battersby, Glaisdale & Whitby. Looking at the photo, I assume the token is put into one side from the previous section and taken out of the other side for the next section, and all tokens will eventually do a big rotation through the machines and signal box so things should be even/equal in the machines.
With the new service terminating at Danby mid-section between Battersby & Glaisdale, I imagine there will be an uneven/skewed buildup of tokens over time that will need re-arranging at some point? Could a situation arise (in theory at least) where there might not be a token available for the driver between Glaisdale & Battersby? Or have I got how the system works wrong?

Battersby Token Machine

• bearhugger
• 23 May 2018

Not quite - the Battersby-Glaisdale token would simply be returned to its original machine at Battersby for the Danby train.

*However*, it's common on these NSKT lines for the tokens to become unbalanced, and as such there is a procedure for S&T to visit the location and move the tokens over. This is the trade-off for having separate token machines on each platform, saving time and giving convenience to the driver.

I presume if a train turns up and the token machine is empty, it's permissible to withdraw a token from the machine on the opposite platform, albeit incurring a slight delay?

 

[ainsworth74]

I presume if a train turns up and the token machine is empty, it's permissible to withdraw a token from the machine on the opposite platform, albeit incurring a slight delay?

As far as I'm aware there is only one token instrument per station per section? So if there are no tokens in the instrument for say Battersby to Glaisdale there wouldn't be another machine to go and remove a token from.

 

[bearhugger]

It shouldn't be an issue. You'll remove a token at Battersby (lets say from the left hand token instrument in your picture I'm not sure which is which actually!) to give you authority to proceed into the Battersby to Glaisdale section. Then drive to Danby and back then put the same token back in the same instrument (the left hand instrument again). The two instruments in the picture will each control one section of track (Battersby to Glaisdale for one of them and Battersby to Nunthorpe for the other) so you won't need to put the token back into a different instrument. In theory the token from one instrument in that picture shouldn't fit into the other as it should only be compatible with the pair of instruments controlling the relevant section (i.e. when you take a token out of the instrument at Battersby it should only fit into the instrument at Glaisdale)!

Thank you for the explanation . I shall have to check, but I'm fairly sure that Glaisdale has a token machine on both platforms. Battersby only has the one platform in use, and Northern only use platform 1 at Whitby anyway (not sure what the arrangement is to accomodate NYMR services between Grosmont & Whitby) and Nunthorpe the signaller collects the token by hand.

 

[ainsworth74]

I shall have to check, but I'm fairly sure that Glaisdale has a token machine on both platforms.

I would gamble that if they do have a instrument on each platform it will be one instrument for the Battersby - Glaisdale section on one platform and then another instrument for the Glaisdale - Whitby seection on the other. Probably a hangover from when Glaisdale was regularly used as a passing place so it might make sense to split them between the two platforms.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Has anyone been on one of these 'extras' yet? Would be interesting to hear what loadings they have.

 

[berneyarms]

Has anyone been on one of these 'extras' yet? Would be interesting to hear what loadings they have.

That’s a kind of a pointless question if you don’t mind me saying so.

Given that the timetable isn’t even 4 days old, I hardly think you could draw any conclusions of any relevance whatsoever with regard to loadings.

It will take time for people to become aware of them - the vast majority of people won’t even know they exist, particularly given the rural nature of the line.

Ask it in 6 months time and then you might get an answer that will have some relevance.

 

[70014IronDuke]

That’s a kind of a pointless question if you don’t mind me saying so.

I'm terribly, terribly sorry for asking a pointless question, and for making you take the trouble to point this out to me.

Given that the timetable isn’t even 4 days old, I hardly think you could draw any conclusions of any relevance whatsoever with regard to loadings.

Oh gosh. I feel so awful now. You hardly think, yes. I really wasn't trying to draw any conclusions, cross my heart and prepare to die. I wasn't. Honest.

It will take time for people to become aware of them - the vast majority of people won’t even know they exist, particularly given the rural nature of the line.

Hmmmm. I suppose you are right, really right. Only, you know, I thought perhaps these trains might be heaving with half the population of Teeside, east Durham and Sunderland keen to ride to Danby. I'm sorry for that. But thank you again for pointing this out.

Ask it in 6 months time and then you might get an answer that will have some relevance.

Oh, golly gosh. I suppose you are right again. I promise, I will ask in 6 months' time - and not a day earlier. Not one day, ok? But, you see - I'm a bit like a boy who wants to open his presents on Christmas Eve rather than wait until the morning of 25th.
(Obviously you are someone far more considered and adult than that - I just ask for forbearance.)

And as this is an open railway discussion group, I wanted to know if anyone had been on the trains and noticed the loadings, yes, even before the timetable was four days old. Pointless? Probably, but there it is. Some of us are just weak this way.

So, if I swear on my Ian Allan ABC 1962 Winter Combined Volume NOT to draw, or even think of drawing any conclusion, and most certainly not a conclusion of any relevance whatsoever - would you mind terribly if I ask this question now? Please?

 

[simon7929]

Thank you for the explanation . I shall have to check, but I'm fairly sure that Glaisdale has a token machine on both platforms. Battersby only has the one platform in use, and Northern only use platform 1 at Whitby anyway (not sure what the arrangement is to accomodate NYMR services between Grosmont & Whitby) and Nunthorpe the signaller collects the token by hand.

Glaisdale has four token machines. Two on each platform (two per section)

NYMR now have a token machine at Grosmont. Somebody had to drive in a car to Glaisdale to take a token when one of their trains needed to head to Whitby some years ago. This is now not required since installation of the machine.

 

[berneyarms]

I'm terribly, terribly sorry for asking a pointless question, and for making you take the trouble to point this out to me.



Oh gosh. I feel so awful now. You hardly think, yes. I really wasn't trying to draw any conclusions, cross my heart and prepare to die. I wasn't. Honest.



Hmmmm. I suppose you are right, really right. Only, you know, I thought perhaps these trains might be heaving with half the population of Teeside, east Durham and Sunderland keen to ride to Danby. I'm sorry for that. But thank you again for pointing this out.



Oh, golly gosh. I suppose you are right again. I promise, I will ask in 6 months' time - and not a day earlier. Not one day, ok? But, you see - I'm a bit like a boy who wants to open his presents on Christmas Eve rather than wait until the morning of 25th.
(Obviously you are someone far more considered and adult than that - I just ask for forbearance.)

And as this is an open railway discussion group, I wanted to know if anyone had been on the trains and noticed the loadings, yes, even before the timetable was four days old. Pointless? Probably, but there it is. Some of us are just weak this way.

So, if I swear on my Ian Allan ABC 1962 Winter Combined Volume NOT to draw, or even think of drawing any conclusion, and most certainly not a conclusion of any relevance whatsoever - would you mind terribly if I ask this question now? Please?

I know you have an interest in “lightly used rural lines”, and fair dues to you, but come on, the timetable is not even four days in and you’re asking about loadings?

I just think that frankly is a daft question given the nature of the line and the lack of a morning peak service into Middlesbrough from beyond Nunthorpe - they’re going to be miniscule starting off.

New services on rural lines take time to bed in. Do you honestly think that intially there will be anything but mainly thin air beyond Nunthorpe for the initial few weeks until word spreads.

And being honest - do you need to be so sarcastic? I gave a direct opinion on your post that’s all.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect the new services would "bed in" a lot quicker if they went all the way to Whitby.

 

[berneyarms]

I suspect the new services would "bed in" a lot quicker if they went all the way to Whitby.

Precisely!

 

[ainsworth74]

I suspect the new services would "bed in" a lot quicker if they went all the way to Whitby.

Well yes, but there isn't the stock/crews available to do that.

Hopefully in the future

 

[70014IronDuke]

I know you have an interest in “lightly used rural lines”, and fair dues to you, but come on, the timetable is not even four days in and you’re asking about loadings?

ER, yes, I am. Sorry if that offends you, but yes, I am. Is that against the rules of this forum, as opposed to your rules?

I just think that frankly is a daft question given the nature of the line and the lack of a morning peak service into Middlesbrough from beyond Nunthorpe - they’re going to be miniscule starting off.

I just think, frankly, that you are a presumptuous metal implement beginning with p that the fireman used to use to clean up the grate – minus the letters “er”.
Note, not because you say the new services are likely to be very lightly loaded – I would agree that is probable – but because you put down anyone asking the question.

I want to know if anyone can tell me and others on this board what the facts are as they observe, in practice. That's all. Pure and simple. If that happens, and then I, the Mayor of Whitby or Gerald Fiennes' ghost then makes an injudicious comment – or, heaven forbid, “any conclusions of any relevance whatsoever” - well you and anyone else in here can then comment on that.

New services on rural lines take time to bed in. Do you honestly think that intially there will be anything but mainly thin air beyond Nunthorpe for the initial few weeks until word spreads.

You think I don't know that? I've been involved (quite possibly like you) with railways for multiple decades. I can't be sure, but I suspect as a ten-year old I would have guessed it takes time to build up a service. I certainly don't need you to tell me that. But I am asking the question about loadings, with no prejudice. You don't seem to like even the thought of that.

And being honest - do you need to be so sarcastic? I gave a direct opinion on your post that’s all.

Being honest, do you need to be such a supercilious know all? (This is a direct opinion of your post - that's all.)
Go back to my post. I asked a simple question. I did not make any implication that I was going to “draw any conclusion” either relevant or irrelevant. It was you who made the conclusion that I was planning to do so.

Until the moderators on this group say that is an unacceptable question, I shall ask it.

 

[glenbogle]

I got the first train to Whitby from Boro on a Sunday whilst on holiday a couple of months ago and it was a pacer, was quite surprised as had always had a 156 - got great views out the larger windows, I enjoy them to be honest!

 

[Marton]

From that timetable it looks like the 0845, 1158 and 1559 off Whitby will all be the same unit (156?) anyway, with something else running the 1934 having worked in from Newcastle.

That’s what it looks like. In fact the 1158 from Whitby on arrival in middlesbrough becomes the 1333 to Hexham.

The 1402 to whitby from middlesbrough is the 1157 Hexham to middlesbrough.

 

[bearhugger]

Has anyone been on one of these 'extras' yet? Would be interesting to hear what loadings they have.

I've just been on the service to Danby today (Friday 25th), 7 people got off between James Cook & Nunthorpe leaving 2 passengers travelling to Danby. On the return journey, 1 person got on at Danby with us two enthusiats, then from Nunthoroe to Middlesbrough a further 14 people boarded. On a grey and rainy day too.

 

[Coolzac]

I've just been on the service to Danby today (Friday 25th), 7 people got off between James Cook & Nunthorpe leaving 2 passengers travelling to Danby. On the return journey, 1 person got on at Danby with us two enthusiats, then from Nunthoroe to Middlesbrough a further 14 people boarded. On a grey and rainy day too.

Was this service a 156 or Pacer?

 

[Seán Elliott]

That’s what it looks like. In fact the 1158 from Whitby on arrival in middlesbrough becomes the 1333 to Hexham.

The 1402 to whitby from middlesbrough is the 1157 Hexham to middlesbrough.

That's really interesting. I had assumed this too; however, when you look up those journeys on National Rail, it says you have to change at Middlesbrough. Is this an error on the website? Would only be a four minute connection on the 1329 ex-Whitby... I'm guessing you may have travelled on this particular service?

 

[Marton]

That's really interesting. I had assumed this too; however, when you look up those journeys on National Rail, it says you have to change at Middlesbrough. Is this an error on the website? Would only be a four minute connection on the 1329 ex-Whitby... I'm guessing you may have travelled on this particular service?

Was on it this wee. Was showing Hexham. The guard had no idea why it was not advertised as through just that a Geordie crew was taking over.

It was looming as RTT that made me realise. There is no ecs move and the Hexham service was from the same platform.

 

[IanXC]

Was on it this wee. Was showing Hexham. The guard had no idea why it was not advertised as through just that a Geordie crew was taking over.

It was looming as RTT that made me realise. There is no ecs move and the Hexham service was from the same platform.

Its not shown in the timetable as a through service. Journey planners don't show a through service.

Looks as though simply the Whitby terminates and immediately forms a Hexham.

 

[Seán Elliott]

Thanks guys - that’s really useful. Definitely means there’ll be more units on the line every day rather than one trundling to and fro for the duration. I doubt they’ll be able to ensure all of those different diagrams are covered by 156s.

Most of the Sunday services from Whitby will now go straight through to Carlisle!

 

[bearhugger]

Was this service a 156 or Pacer?

A pacer - 142091.

 

[route101]

Yeah few on Sunday go to Carlisle , one way to connect back to Glasgow !!

 

[simon7929]

There was a 142 on Whitby yesterday. Booked a 156 normally. Train was full and standing all the way.

 

[yorksrob]

There was a 142 on Whitby yesterday. Booked a 156 normally. Train was full and standing all the way.

On a sunny bank holiday. Doesn't surprise me. Hopefully a temporary aberration rather than a long term situation.