Paddington - Crossrail platforms

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Uzair

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There is a discussion going on about the service pattern for Crossrail once it begins. Someone mentioned that the detrainment process at Paddington will have to be quite fast and efficient to accommodate the number of trains terminating there per hour.

This got me thinking what the track layout actually will be around Paddington. I only really know about Canary Wharf having a scissors crossover at one of the ends - I forgot. Of course stations being taken over by Crossrail will most likely retain the same track layout.

If anyone has a track plan for the planned station, then any information would be nice!
 
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jopsuk

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The terminating trains will arrive at the westbound platform, detrain and proceed to a headshunt beyond the tunnel portals as far I understand- someone has posted a diagaram of the track layout on here before. The trains will then turn around (I think the headshunt has two sidings) and be brought back into the eastbound platform- bear in mind a number will continue as through trains to Heathrow and Maidenhead instead.

This is how it works on some Underground and DLR lines (Picadilly at Heathrow T5, W&C at Waterloo, DLR at Bank etc) already.
 

swt_passenger

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Here's the entire GW track layout as seen originally on the ORR website. Rail magazine have just published a slightly modified version of the Paddington area, but it is only subtly different.

AIUI it has previously been stated that the reversing sidings are to be cleared for passenger use, so Crossrail won't actually have to check trains are empty before departing Paddington. Anyone overcarried will just be brought back a few minutes later - a bit like the LU Kennington loop...
 

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swt_passenger

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There is a discussion going on about the service pattern for Crossrail once it begins. Someone mentioned that the detrainment process at Paddington will have to be quite fast and efficient to accommodate the number of trains terminating there per hour.

If your discussion is perhaps referring to the timetable shown on this page:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/railway/train-service/timetabling

on the Crossrail website, I'd also bear in mind that that the 10 tph shown to Heathrow is almost certainly wrong, it should only be 4 tph. 10 tph is the combined figure for the service on the GW. As you'll see, in the next section down they also refer to the 14 tph terminating at Paddington, so the figures total 30 tph (ie 14 tph +16 tph) if you take them as correct.

There has been a subsequent proposal (in the London and SE RUS) to run HEX as well as Connect onto Crossrail, but I think that webpage is supposed to reflect only the 4 tph Connect service that is currently confirmed.

(I've sent a query to the Crossrail help desk - will report back if they reply.)
 
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Stats

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It's 4tph to Heathrow, as confirmed by Crossrail on Network Rail's website.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2012/apr/Weve-started-work-for-Heathrow-Crossrail-services/

Matt White, Crossrail surface director, said: “The major works at Stockley Interchange will allow Crossrail services to operate to Heathrow. Crossrail will provide four 10-car trains per hour on the Great Western main line in each direction between central London and Heathrow with two per hour to West Drayton and four per hour to Maidenhead.”
 

swt_passenger

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It took them until today for Crossrail to reply, but they have now fixed their website to remove the misleading description of the frequency west of Paddington.
 

gwr4090

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The previous description refers only to the peak service. The standard off-peak service which will run most of the day will have 12 trains per hour through the central section, 6 serving Shenfield and 6 serving Abbey Wood. To the west 2 will serve Maidenhead and 4 will serve Heathrow, with the remaining 6 terminating at Paddington.

However I suspect that this may well change before Crossail opens, especially if Crossrail is extended to Reading, and the WRAtH project (Western Access to Heathrow) goes ahead so that Crossrail trains can continue beyond Heathrow to Reading.

David
 

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Forgive me for saying that this sounds like an utter waste of time with the off peak timetable, why not extend more services to West Drayton or Maidenhead as the chances are that Crossrail will only make these services busier, and Old Oak Common interchange will likely change all of this again, as this would provide a much more sensible terminating point for Crossrail services not running onwards past OOC.

Although I'm a fan of connecting Crossrail to the Chiltern and/or West Coast Mainline slows or DC Lines, combined with a slight enhancement on the Croxley Rail Link it could result in services running these kind of things from OOC:

Old Oak Common (Current Platforms):
Reading Semi Fast (Reading - All Stations - Maidenhead - Slough - Hayes & Harlington (Add in some passing loops?) - OOC - Paddington.
With some electrification;
OOC (Currently planned Platforms) - North Acton (New Platforms) - Greenford (New Platforms) - South Ruislip - West Ruislip - Denham - Denham Golf Club - Etc. Etc. - High Wycombe (Taking over stopping services with 4tph, 25kV OHL Electrification) Possibly combined with Neasden - South Ruislip handed over to the Jubilee or Met line for 4 tph.

Old Oak Common (2nd Set of Platforms):
West Coast Mainline Slows, 4tph to Watford Junction with new platforms at Willsden Junction, and 4tph Watford DC Lines (With platform extensions) with new platforms at Old Oak Common and using the platforms at Willesden.

And if possible some flyovers near Bushey to have services run via Bushey and Croxley to Ammersham to take some pressure off the Met Line.
 

swt_passenger

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The previous description refers only to the peak service.

David

Quite right, and that was already made clear on their website. The error was solely that their numbers were quite wrong for the peak service, and they are now correct.

None of that has anything to do with future changes that may or may not happen...
 

Waddon

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Going back to the original point, I can't see there being enough time to detrain passengers at Paddington with that many trains running through, especially when they have to turf out the drunks/sleepers...

it sometimes takes a couple of minutes to detrain an overground service at West Croydon, for example, before it moves on to the sidings, and that's only 4 coaches compared to the 10-car length of a Crossrail set. Any delay at all on Crossrail and the whole system will get backed up

and I can't see them being allowed to take the train into the sidings with passengers, I think that comment about the Kennington loop is inaccurate, as I understand it LU are barred from letting passengers stay on the train at Kennington after some sort of incident involving a passenger in the loop... mind you, you can still do it on the New York Subway if you want to see the old City Hall station :)
 

cle

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No, it is confirmed. Unlike the Kennington loop.

Hopefully it won't be a problem forever, as they rush to give the terminating trains homes. 4tph to Heathrow Express for instance, won't be long in the wings.

Perhaps they should expedite platforms at Old Oak Common.
 

MarkyT

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No, it is confirmed. Unlike the Kennington loop.

Sharp curves and open inter-car gangways preclude accidentally carrying passengers into reversing sidings and loops on traditional LU rolling stock. An over riding passenger on a Liverpool Street reverser on the Central Line some years ago presumably panicked and tried to escape or get help, using an end door to access the next car. Unfortunately he fell or was crushed to his death in the process. Crossrail trains will no doubt have fully enclosed gangways where this kind or risk has been eliminated, so as long as the signalling controls provide sufficient 'passenger standard' mitigation against derailment and shunting collisions, full inspection of the train before entering the Paddington turnback sidings can be omitted safely.
 

swt_passenger

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Trains are no longer detrained for the Kennington Loop, and the only announcements are that the train terminates, all change etc. The detraining procedure is no longer carried out by staff.

There have been a couple of threads about Kennington specifically in District Dave's LU forum, which I take to be fairly authoritative, given the proportion of LU staff posting there. Easy to find in their Northern Line sub-forum.

There have also been threads there about various other places where detraining is no longer done as a normal routine, such that it is no longer correct to make sweeping statements that passengers cannot enter ANY sidings or loops.
 

tbtc

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Forgive me for saying that this sounds like an utter waste of time with the off peak timetable, why not extend more services to West Drayton or Maidenhead as the chances are that Crossrail will only make these services busier

They are replacing Turbostars with high capacity ten coach EMUs though - I'd be surprised if the current level of service west of Paddington isn't sufficient for a few years yet.

I'd like to see it being more ambitious (more to Heathrow, further into Kent etc), but the initial service levels will still be significantly more capacity than these lines currently see.
 

anthony263

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They are replacing Turbostars with high capacity ten coach EMUs though - I'd be surprised if the current level of service west of Paddington isn't sufficient for a few years yet.

I'd like to see it being more ambitious (more to Heathrow, further into Kent etc), but the initial service levels will still be significantly more capacity than these lines currently see.

I think you meen Thames turbo's aka the class 165/166's rather than the class 170-172 turbostars which operate nowehere between London Paddington & Reading.

Anyway I should think 2 crossrail trains per hour should be more than enough off peak on the line between Hayes & Harlington & Maidenhead although I do hope to see crossrail running to Reading.

Anway however we could get shocked and see a very sharp increase in passengers using the crossrail services so perhaps there may be a case a few years after crossrail is up and running to increase the number of offpeak crossrail services per hour running to Maidenhead/Reading.

Also perhaps at later dates we can see a direct western link opened between the GWML & Heathrow airport
 

tbtc

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I think you meen Thames turbo's aka the class 165/166's rather than the class 170-172 turbostars which operate nowehere between London Paddington & Reading

You are right - I did mean that :oops:

(the point remains though that these Crossrail EMUs are going to be a lot longer than the DMUs that they replace)
 

NY Yankee

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CROSSRAIL 2, running between Tottenham and Wimbledon, needs to be started now if London's transport system is not to become clogged up, according to an influential group of business people.

A line linking south-west and north-east London has been on the drawing board since the 1970s, but has been given new urgency with the development of the High Speed 2 rail network, which will feature a revamped Euston station. Where once Crossrail 2 was to have ended in Hackney, the advent of HS2 means new plans look like taking in Euston on the way to Tottenham Hale.

Though improvements to other Tube lines are to increase capacity on the Underground, thousands of extra travellers drawn in by HS2 and by London's population growth are set to "grind London to a halt", says a report from London First.

To avoid that congestion and to dovetail with the opening of HS2, Crossrail 2 would need to be open by the latter 2020s, a timeline that requires work to start this year.

"The issue is whether we want to start planning for Crossrail 2 now or leave it until the early 2030s when the congestion is upon us and let London grind to a halt like we did with the Tube in the 1980s and 1990s,” Lord Adonis, an ex-Transport Minister now working for business group London First, told the Financial Times.

The Tottenham-Wimbledon line would cost an estimated £16 billion, say experts, but there is also a cheaper alternative on the table - a £10 billion link that would stretch from Seven Sisters to Clapham Junction.

Crossrail 1, joining east and west London, is set to open in 2018.

http://www.londonnet.co.uk/news/2012/may/crossrail-2-work-must-start-now-tottenhamwimbledon-link-says-london-business.html
 
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Anyway I should think 2 crossrail trains per hour should be more than enough off peak on the line between Hayes & Harlington & Maidenhead although I do hope to see crossrail running to Reading.

Personally, as I currently use the station at West Drayton many times a week (off peak) I'm quite disappointed that the service frequency will be cut on weekday off-peak and the removal of the through service to Reading as a result of Crossrail. It's pretty much a turn up and go four trains an hour at the moment for both London and Reading. Meanwhile, Hayes gets another two additional off-peak services as well as keeping it's existing services. Poor show!

Is there anywhere else that is going to see a reduction in service levels thanks to Crossrail?
 

tbtc

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Personally, as I currently use the station at West Drayton many times a week (off peak) I'm quite disappointed that the service frequency will be cut on weekday off-peak and the removal of the through service to Reading as a result of Crossrail. It's pretty much a turn up and go four trains an hour at the moment for both London and Reading. Meanwhile, Hayes gets another two additional off-peak services as well as keeping it's existing services. Poor show!

Is there anywhere else that is going to see a reduction in service levels thanks to Crossrail?

Isn't West Drayton getting two terminators an hour *plus* four Maidenhead services an hour? Ten coaches long?
 

Zoe

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Isn't West Drayton getting two terminators an hour *plus* four Maidenhead services an hour? Ten coaches long?
At peak times. Off Peak unless the plans have changed it will just be the 2 tph to Maidenhead. I'm not sure if any of the remaining FGW (or the company that wins the new franchise) London and Thames Valley services will continue to call at West Drayton.
 
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JamesRowden

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The planned service of Crossrail was formed before the Great Western electrification had been anounced by Labour. It is based around the assumption that EMUs would not be able to go beyond Maidenhead. This is why only two of the Paddington to Reading stoppers were to be kept and the other two were to be replaced by two Crossrail services to Maidenhead and two Reading to Slough stoppers. Now that Reading is getting new platforms and electrifiaction it is obvious (as the London and South East RUS explains) that the four stoppers between Reading and Paddington should be replaced with four Crossrail servcies.

I think that all the stoppers into Paddington should run as Crossrail services. It seems futile to have EMU stoppers terminating from both directions at Paddington since it greatly reduces connectivity (people having to get off a stopper and tranfer to crossrail at Paddington / Ealing Broadway) and it reduces the number or paths available (stoppers running into the main Paddinton station will need to cross the paths of Crossrail services that are running out of London).

Another suggestion that I would have for reducing the number of Crossrail services needing to terminate at Paddington would be to merge the Paddington semi-fast services (Oxford / Newbury) with the Liverpool street semi-fast services (Southend Victoria / Colchester Town) to create a Thameslink style service. The only isue would be the need for the services to transfer from the fast lines to the slow lines in order to access Crossrail. But, if possible it would produce huge time savings and simplicity for those travelling between such destinations, it would have a similar effect for those wanting to get from a semi-fast destination on one side to an intercity destination on the other. And it would reduce the pedestrain congestion at Paddington / Liverpool Street by reducing the number of people changing trains there.
 

swt_passenger

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...The only issue would be the need for the services to transfer from the fast lines to the slow lines in order to access Crossrail. But, if possible it would produce huge time savings and simplicity for those travelling between such destinations, it would have a similar effect for those wanting to get from a semi-fast destination on one side to an intercity destination on the other. And it would reduce the pedestrain congestion at Paddington / Liverpool Street by reducing the number of people changing trains there.

It is only the 'only issue' if you ignore the fact that you'd need additional rolling stock, as the order is only sized to run the declared timetable.
 

swt_passenger

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Never heard of options to be exercised...?

Certainly have. But it doesn't mean it isn't an issue if there are any service changes. For a start, TfL might not see it as their role. But we've discussed this in a number of previous threads...
 

Rational Plan

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At peak times. Off Peak unless the plans have changed it will just be the 2 tph to Maidenhead. I'm not sure if any of the remaining FGW (or the company that wins the new franchise) London and Thames Valley services will continue to call at West Drayton.

While no one will commit themselves publicly it is extremely unlikely that Crossrail will end up opening with services terminating at Maidenhead. With electrification and Reading rebuild it would be strange if the trains did not go to Reading. But with crossrail trains being 10 carriages long, which tow to three times longer than many off peak paddington services on the slow lines. So I can see how it may be difficult to run many off peak Services West of Hayes and Harlington. I suspect we may see some semi fasts operating on the slow lines.
 

tbtc

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Another suggestion that I would have for reducing the number of Crossrail services needing to terminate at Paddington would be to merge the Paddington semi-fast services (Oxford / Newbury) with the Liverpool street semi-fast services (Southend Victoria / Colchester Town) to create a Thameslink style service. The only isue would be the need for the services to transfer from the fast lines to the slow lines in order to access Crossrail. But, if possible it would produce huge time savings and simplicity for those travelling between such destinations, it would have a similar effect for those wanting to get from a semi-fast destination on one side to an intercity destination on the other. And it would reduce the pedestrain congestion at Paddington / Liverpool Street by reducing the number of people changing trains there.

The problem there is that we are talking ten coach toiletless stock for Crossrail, designed for high capacity of standees (i.e. few seats).

That really wouldn't suit the Oxford market.
 

Nym

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Thats the other thing, it doesn't NEED to be toiletless high density only stock, it could be a combination stock similar to the layout of the S Stock with a combination of seating types, and the odd tolet smattered throughout the unit (retention toilets of course) and then there wouldn't be any issue with running to Oxford.

But IMO it should be capped off at Reading, Heathrow and Shenfeild, Abbey Wood to start with, and get that reliabally working, with options for additional stock, then start looking at extensions out to:

High Wycombe 4tph/2tph
Watford Junction (Possibly with a bit of a re-model) 4tph/2tph
Gravesend

etc. etc.
 

LexyBoy

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It does seem to complicate matters having Crossrail terminate at Maidenhead. Whilst it does fit in with the main passenger flows - up services tend to pick up at/after Maidenhead, and down services set down till there and pick up for Reading from Maidenhead/Twyford - it means that some fast services will need to call at Maidenhead as well as Reading, and local services will have to be rejigged with more running fast from Maidenhead (though this could be a boon for travellers from between Reading and Oxford) or terminating at Maidenhead (or running onto Henley for example).

Basically it seems a bit odd to create a new interchange point when there is one just up the line which is well established and being hugely expanded. I agree that going further out than Reading is unlikely to work (or be done) though.
 

Nym

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Aye, I'd say the outer limit is Reading on the GW for Crossrail.

Other outer limits include, in a clockwise order...

Reading
High Wycome or possibly Princess Risbrough
Alesbury Vale Parkway
Tring (At a push)
St Albans (Irrelevant, thameslink)
Stevenage (Irrelevant, thameslink)
Boxbourne / Hertford East
Shenfeild
Pitsea
Gravesend
Sevenoaks / Tonbridge
Gatwick Airport
Guildford
and back to Reading ;)
 
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