Paddington derailment 16/06/16

[Carntyne]

I dont know Paddington at all, but I assume they will have to remove overhead lines to get a crane in to lift and rerail the train ??

Depending on how far off the line it is, they might not need a crane.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I dont know Paddington at all, but I assume they will have to remove overhead lines to get a crane in to lift and rerail the train ??

Depending on what state the unit is in they might jack it and rail it and then tow it away

 

[Bletchleyite]

Facebook and another Forum say Cat A SPAD at SN6004. If the info is available elsewhere in the public domain, are we speculating ?

Not given that nobody is saying anything more than what Network Rail's Press Office appear to have Tweeted. Given that the railway rarely make a statement like that, they must be absolutely certain.

Of course, why there was a SPAD is a matter for investigation.

 

[swt_passenger]

There installing questions then there is gossiping and spreading rumours. At end ofndaybthisnis why we have the hmri/raib to do there investigation it's what there paid for the armchair investigators are quick to come out with ASSUMPTIONS and this is how rumours start. Let the real investigators do there job. How would you like it if you made a big error init place of work that affected others and people starting making speculations about what you done to be totally different to what actually happened as they were not there to see what you done. Works both ways end of the day we were not there so can't say what happened or why that's down to te investigators and the driver and staff involved to discuss not on a public forum

I think you are getting over the top with the warnings. I can't see any speculation in this thread, just questions.

 

[pdeaves]

Can we keep the speculation to a minimum please

Two responses.

• 'something has happened; what possible causes could lead to that happening?' .... OK to discuss in my view
• 'huh, it's obvious that such-and-such happened and the driver/signaller/maintainer/government/whoever are idiots/should be prosecuted/whatever' .... Not OK in my view

 

[philthetube]

Doubtful, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36555082



Will the RAIB likely investigate this derailment?

Would the sidings be equipped with AWS/TPWS/ATP?

The only thing I imagine the RAIB being interested is the damage caused to infrastructure by the derailed train, whether consideration was given to the possible consequences of a train being derailed at the trap points and if there could be risk of injury to people should an incident occur. What procedures are in place to ensure that structures erected around catch points may create a risk etc.

 

[Scott M]

Poor driver.

Does raise questions as to why have automatic derailment devices when you could just fit a magnet.

 

[theageofthetra]

Out of interest is this the first time an aluminum bodied unit has potentially grounded to earth an HT supply?

 

[Sacro]

Poor driver.

Does raise questions as to why have automatic derailment devices when you could just fit a magnet.

What would the magnet do? Stick the train to it?

 

[chrisdmadd]

What would the magnet do? Stick the train to it?

Some of the things people come out with on here is golden.

Thoughts with the driver

 

[darloscott]

To me whatever happened with the unit is one thing. But who allowed electrification gantries etc to be put in the 'line of fire' from said trap points? So they did their job and derailed the train but straight into a gantry?

 

[pdeaves]

What would the magnet do? Stick the train to it?

If the other person meant 'AWS magnet', that wouldn't work where the cab stops between the magnet and 'shunt' signal. That's why shunt signals don't have magnets. If full signalling arrangements are given then there is no point in having a shunt signal (and sidings would become stupidly long).

 

[chrisdmadd]

Some of the things people come out with on here is golden.

Thoughts with the driver

Mind I'm only speculating that there was a driver on it.

 

[Scott M]

What would the magnet do? Stick the train to it?

Yeah. Perhaps a cheaper alternative would be sellotape.

In all seriousness though, I meant AWS.

 

[ComUtoR]

What would the magnet do? Stick the train to it?

Pretty much yes. A big giant magnet comes out the ground and the train gets magnetised to the track.


@Scott M I don't think a magnet would work as coming out of sidings etc leaves minimal room in some cases. I'd prefer a trainstop as a magnet will still leave room for the train to run on and the risk of collision is still there.

I know a set of trap points that run over the side of a bridge !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TSo they did their job and derailed the train but straight into a gantry?

Better to hit a gantry than an oncoming train. They did there job perfectly and any risk was mitigated.

 

[chrisdmadd]

Yeah. Perhaps a cheaper alternative would be sellotape.

In all seriousness though, I meant AWS.

AWS wouldn't do anything either.

I think you mean TPWS (train stop loop to be precise)

Normally derailers will be fitted so a head on collision or similar can be avoided.

If a train was on a collision path after having a SPAD you wouldn't really want TPWS to stop it as it may be too late. Derailers are slightly more effective!

 

[richw]

No it's just not nice I feel to speculate that's all after all we know how the press can get things wrong sometimes that's all didn't mean to start a argument

Is there anything so wrong in informed speculation? Network Rail have already told us there was a SPAD.

Really only three possibilities. Driver error, signaller error, infrastructure fault.

Network rail have publically tweeted it was a SPAD, therefore there is no speculation involved in repeating this.
Speculation is forming a theory without firm evidence.
We can take network rails comments as firm evidence as people in the know of the facts,

 

[Chris M]

To me whatever happened with the unit is one thing. But who allowed electrification gantries etc to be put in the 'line of fire' from said trap points? So they did their job and derailed the train but straight into a gantry?

At Castle Cary there are trap points that would derail directly into the passenger footbridge support.

 

[Nippy]

That unit has come a long way off at the traps as well. To get almost two coaches off is a good effort!

 

[L&Y Robert]

I know a set of trap points that run over the side of a bridge !

Mile north of Banbury the trap points on the down loop lead straight into the Oxford Canal!

 

[edwin_m]

Pretty much yes. A big giant magnet comes out the ground and the train gets magnetised to the track.

Wouldn't work in this case. It's an aluminium train...

Trap points are provided to protect every exit from a siding onto a passenger running line, unless a point exists for some other reason that can be worked to serve the same purpose. While TPWS might stop a train running under the control of a driver (though probably needing more space than a trap point), it won't stop wagons or even a passenger train if it has been left unbraked and for some reason started to move toward the main line. There are a few past incidents where a strong wind has been enough to get a train rolling.

 

[D1009]

1Y73 being evacuated nr Ladbroke Grove

That doesn't look like a Heathrow Express to me.

 

[ComUtoR]

Wouldn't work in this case. It's an aluminium train...

What are the wheels made of ?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Wouldn't work in this case. It's an aluminium train...

However, stock could be built with magnetic track brakes fitted.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is this the little bit thats left of the old "engine only" line that formed an up-and-over for locos to access old oak common without blocking the station throat. Also wasnt there some sort of goods/parcels platform along this stretch?

Yes. That long siding along there was used very intensively. If I recall correctly, by mail, Red Star parcels, and I think newspapers - but that was 40+ years ago.

I can't comment on its use as an "engine only" line, (while I do recall light locos making their rapid exit immediately behind a departing service, I don't remember where they went or how they returned).

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Trap points are provided to protect every exit from a siding onto a passenger running line

Which of itself is a safety feature. Should there not be consideration of resilience as well? Directing a train falling foul of the trap points into a collision with an electrification gantry is going to magnify the disruption effect by several degrees of magnitude.

At a guess, hitting the gantry required the overhead power to be switched off. That's only a problem for the Heathrow service, but how far out was the switch off? Reports suggest that Slough was the furthest east to which services could run, giving the alternative route of Piccadilly Line to Heathrow and bus to Slough.

 

[MarkyT]

Trap or safety points where sidings join passenger lines were among the early requirements for new railways:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=161
The First Requirements of the Inspecting Officers of Railways, 29th April 1858

Sidings, if falling towards the line, or on a level, to be provided with locked chock blocks, or locked points, leading into a blind siding

Later:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=166
Requirements, &c. of the Board of Trade in Regard to The Opening of Railways - An annotated version of the 1892 edition of the 1885 Board of Trade requirements for new railways, showing amendments to be made for the 1902 issue.

Sidings to be so arranged that shunting operations upon them shall present the least possible obstruction to the passenger lines. Safety points to be provided upon goods and mineral lines and sidings, at their junctions with passenger lines with the points closed against the passenger lines and interlocked with the signals.

 

[Sunset route]

Was going to form part of a train to Henley-on-Thames. 25mph. Its derailed on the catch points coming off the Link Line.

Trap points not catch points

 

[greaterwest]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C42734/2016/06/16/advanced 2P91 the 2217 Reading to Paddington

Looks as though this is the first train to have made it through to Paddington since the incident six hours ago.

Six car turbo formed of 165123, 165133 and 165134, now working the first one out; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C42609/2016/06/16/advanced 2N92 the 2333 Paddington to Oxford

1A96 the 1955 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington looks to be the first HSS to get through, and only 85L. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C41408/2016/06/16/advanced

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Currently no news on the down sleeper, whether it will run or not, or how late it will be.

 

[MarkyT]

I can't comment on its use as an "engine only" line, (while I do recall light locos making their rapid exit immediately behind a departing service, I don't remember where they went or how they returned).

There was a stabling and fuelling/watering facility a little further out at Ranelagh Road on the same south side side of the railway as the sidings concerned here. It survived steam to become a diesel loco facility but the last vestiges were removed in the 1990s resignalling.

Which of itself is a safety feature. Should there not be consideration of resilience as well? Directing a train falling foul of the trap points into a collision with an electrification gantry is going to magnify the disruption effect by several degrees of magnitude.

Totally agree this is an example of poor design. Years ago, in the WR signalling drawing office, we used to joke that the GWR used to put traps deliberately in the most inconvenient and dangerous places possible to direct derailed trains straight into signal boxes, relay rooms and off the side of high earthworks or bridges! Layouts designed today with safety more in mind usually have short spurs at the end of sidings with friction buffers rather than throw-off traps or sand drags to arrest errant movements. With traps, trains thrown off the rails invariably plough through cable troughs and destroy power or signalling cables even if they don't hit any equipment cabinets or signalling or electrification structures.