"Paddington has its own rules" - but what are they?

[nitten_travell]

Hi all,

I'm enjoying a drink at the pub just opposite Didcot Parkway and reflecting on my interaction with the GWR guard on the 1600 from Paddington.

I bought a Super Off Peak Single from Newtongrange station ticket machine this morning. When I did so machine told me of the restrictions on the ticket (nre.co.uk/1K, basically restrictions on arrival into London; my departure time rendered them moot), valid Any Permitted route, so I went off on my way to Waverley, then Kings Cross, then Paddington.

The ticket would not work the barrier at Paddington but I was allowed through by the person on the gate. I got on the train, found a seat etc, and heard an announcement that Super Off-Peak tickets were not valid. So I checked nre.co.uk/1K again, no mention of this at all.

Shortly before arriving at Didcot Parkway my ticket was checked and I was told it was not valid because it's Super Off-Peak, an announcement was made etc etc. I showed the guard the 1K webpage, which was countered with "Well, Paddington has its own rules, let me show you" before pulling up something on the handheld thing which showed that London-Didcot Parkway Off Peak was not valid on that service. "Fine", I said, "but I didn't start in London I started in Scotland this morning, why does the website printed on my ticket not mention Paddington's Rules at all?" and we went round in circles for a bit until the train actually got to Didcot Parkway and I was let off.

I checked with the ticket office at Didcot Parkway who confirmed that all was in order and my ticket was valid (and sold me my ticket for the opposite journey, on Saturday, no worries about peak/offpeak).

My question is, what are these Paddington Rules and are they printed anywhere? I am aware that the staff at the gateline can be a law unto themselves but I'd have expected the information on the NRE site to be accepted by the on-train staff, regardless of what their device actually told them.

 

[jfollows]

Complete twaddle but not surprising given the reports over the years of Paddington inventing the rules to suit what they think they ought to be rather than what they are.
NRE is authoritative and anyone else who decides the rules are different is just wrong.

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid the guard you came across was completely wrong and making things up. Paddington doesn't have its own rules; the restrictions that apply depend on the ticket you hold. Trains aren't generically peak or off-peak in the way the guard claimed.

You established the validity of your ticket in the correct manner - using the wording of the restriction code, which tells you what (if any) restrictions there are on your journey, and which stations or operators these apply to. In this case, restriction code 1K means that there are no restrictions on travel from Paddington to Didcot so you were entirely valid to use the 16:00.

The Network Area "Rule" is sadly only a rule of thumb these days as it's no longer universal, but it is reflected in restriction code 1K - i.e. the "local" portion (the part within the Network Area) of a long-distance journey via London is unrestricted.

On the one hand you might want to complain to GWR in the hope that a manager can have a word with this guard to correct their misunderstanding of the rules, but if we're being realistic, even if that happened (which is unlikely) there would still be many other guards labouring under similar misapprehensions. It's an endemic problem at GWR, both at the Paddington gateline as well as, to a lesser extent, onboard staff.

Like Avanti with their notorious Euston gateline staff, GWR seem to have no interest in training their staff properly so as to avoid these issues reoccuring. The problem is that most passengers don't know any better and just think that the staff are right and the website/app is wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

Another staff member hallucinating fake rules. Hopefully there’s a cure out there somewhere.

 

[ModernRailways]

Complete twaddle but not surprising given the reports over the years of Paddington inventing the rules to suit what they think they ought to be rather than what they are.
NRE is authoritative and anyone else who decides the rules are different is just wrong.

This isn’t just a Paddington thing, I’ve had guards on other TOCs say the exact same. The local PTE area may be ‘Peak’ (Anytime) but if you venture out of the PTE all ‘Off-Peak’ tickets would be valid, sometimes this can mean the same train it’s cheaper to buy a ticket to a location further afield but some guards will know the restrictions for local tickets and as such apply those.
Personally, I’m aware in my area some journeys should require an Anytime, but my general rule is before 0929 is Anytime, 0930 onwards is Off-Peak. If someone shows an Off-peak I may query it and see if they have an itinerary which matches my service in which case the itinerary makes it valid regardless and if no itinerary can be shown I’ll look it up on Brfares.

 

[AdamWW]

And before someone suggests that you can't expect staff to know all the ticket validity codes, no, you can't, but you should expect them to know how the system works and only reject a ticket if they know or have looked up the validity code.

 

[jfollows]

This isn’t just a Paddington thing, I’ve had guards on other TOCs say the exact same. The local PTE area may be ‘Peak’ (Anytime) but if you venture out of the PTE all ‘Off-Peak’ tickets would be valid, sometimes this can mean the same train it’s cheaper to buy a ticket to a location further afield but some guards will know the restrictions for local tickets and as such apply those.
Personally, I’m aware in my area some journeys should require an Anytime, but my general rule is before 0929 is Anytime, 0930 onwards is Off-Peak. If someone shows an Off-peak I may query it and see if they have an itinerary which matches my service in which case the itinerary makes it valid regardless and if no itinerary can be shown I’ll look it up on Brfares.

Thank you, I'd certainly not expect you to know all the fare rules off the top of your head, and in today's world it's easy to look them up as you say, and you're doing what I'd hope all people in your situation would do. And, for sure, I think most either do what you do or allow the ticket to pass if the passenger makes any kind of argument that it is.
Also I don't envy you because the pricing people are always fiddling with the rules and it's hard to keep updated anyway.

 

[Harpers Tate]

One of these days, somebody will be penalised (by whatever means) by an enthusiastic employee for a total non-transgression, and will be resourceful enough to ignore approaches from the TOC and its agents until they proceed with all their legal might. And have the case awarded against the TOC, with costs and compensation.

Then and only then, I think, may they actually sit up and pay attention; i.e. when it actually hurts them enough.

(See also the case of the unvalidated Gatwick ticket reported elsewhere).

 

[jfollows]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...off-peak-validity-spectacularly-wrong.110909/
27 pages from 2015 to 2016
Meetings with and promises by a Customer Services Manager, amongst others.
All came to nothing.

 

[maniacmartin]

Paddington "has its own rules" in that off-peak tickets issued from London Terminals to stations that GWR serve often have a restriction code whose text bars most fast trains in the evening peak.

As your ticket didn't have an origin in London or the NSE area and thus had a different restriction code of 1K, Paddington's "own rules" do not apply. The restriction code for a London to Didcot ticket is irrelevant. This is basic knowledge that anyone checking tickets should know.

 

[Kite159]

From the sounds of it, the member of staff didn't charge you anything extra (which would open up a larger can of worms). Rail staff ain't expected to know every restriction but should know the basics, and if in doubt look it up (assuming they are carrying a device which has access to the restriction code database) before making a fool of themselves.

Yes Paddington does have different rules on certain ticket types (an off-peak day return to Basingstoke (or beyond) is valid to depart anytime in the afternoon from Waterloo but is only valid on the slower TfL trains from Paddington).

 

[AdamWW]

From the sounds of it, the member of staff didn't charge you anything extra (which would open up a larger can of worms). Rail staff ain't expected to know every restriction but should know the basics, and if in doubt look it up (assuming they are carrying a device which has access to the restriction code database) before making a fool of themselves.

And if they can't look it up or there isn't time, then they should just let the passenger through. After all if it's such an obscure ticket that they haven't seen it before, it's hardly going to be a big issue if they get it wrong and allow someone through that they shouldn't have.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...off-peak-validity-spectacularly-wrong.110909/
27 pages from 2015 to 2016
Meetings with and promises by a Customer Services Manager, amongst others.
All came to nothing.

Wow. That thread is somewhat depressing.

 

[hkstudent]

I was thinking of Worthing another class action against GWR and Avanti over these overcharged tickets, if there are enough of them.

 

[nitten_travell]

Complete twaddle but not surprising given the reports over the years of Paddington inventing the rules to suit what they think they ought to be rather than what they are.
NRE is authoritative and anyone else who decides the rules are different is just wrong.

Actually the ticket office staff member, when I pointed out the nre code on the ticket, said (not verbatim but close enough) "oh that's NRE, I don't care about that, I work for GWR"...

Thank you, I'd certainly not expect you to know all the fare rules off the top of your head, and in today's world it's easy to look them up as you say, and you're doing what I'd hope all people in your situation would do. And, for sure, I think most either do what you do or allow the ticket to pass if the passenger makes any kind of argument that it is.
Also I don't envy you because the pricing people are always fiddling with the rules and it's hard to keep updated anyway.

Which is why I had the nre.co.uk/1K restriction code open on my laptop. I thought it might allow the guard an exit "Oh yes, you've come far, sorry, only local super off peak are not valid" kind of thing. The ticket price - £110 - ought to have also been a clue that I'd not come from down the road.

One of these days, somebody will be penalised (by whatever means) by an enthusiastic employee for a total non-transgression, and will be resourceful enough to ignore approaches from the TOC and its agents until they proceed with all their legal might. And have the case awarded against the TOC, with costs and compensation.

Then and only then, I think, may they actually sit up and pay attention; i.e. when it actually hurts them enough.

(See also the case of the unvalidated Gatwick ticket reported elsewhere).

This is what I was wondering when I started the thread. The ticket check took place about 2 mins before the train arrived at Didcot. It ended with "well we're here now just be sure in the future you travel on the correct train" hence my question to the ticket office and this thread. If it had been 20 mins beforehand would I have ended up buying a ticket I didn't need? Or would I have spent 20 minutes politely declining and pointing to the 1K website? I think I'd have fired up GWR's own website and run an enquiry for the same route tomorrow to demonstrate that GWR themselves will sell a super off peak single for the same time train.

From the sounds of it, the member of staff didn't charge you anything extra (which would open up a larger can of worms). Rail staff ain't expected to know every restriction but should know the basics, and if in doubt look it up (assuming they are carrying a device which has access to the restriction code database) before making a fool of themselves.

Yes Paddington does have different rules on certain ticket types (an off-peak day return to Basingstoke (or beyond) is valid to depart anytime in the afternoon from Waterloo but is only valid on the slower TfL trains from Paddington).

No, no extra ticket (see above) but they did have a tablet thing with a screen and able to delve into the ticket system with it. If push came to shove probably also a smartphone with which to check the restriction.

 

[Craig1122]

I once worked on the ticket office at a former NSE area station where local off peak tickets were only valid from 0930. The barriers were set up to reflect this. There were a number of exceptions to this rule for longer journeys, I found myself on some occasions having to escort the passenger to the gateline in order to explain to the gateline staff that the ticket was valid. Unfortunately the railway has constructed a complicated fare system yet often has little interest in training staff how it works.

 

[father_jack]

I've done the standard "TTK" ticket machine course and the instructor goes to lengths to say put the entire journey in the the handheld unit, then when it shows the ticket you press on the restriction code and it takes you to the ticket restriction explanation. Clearly a newbie who wasn't listening to the training but who is quick to conform to urban myth. If they were that confident like another poster said they'd have charged you up....

 

[Hadders]

It's never been easier to look up the restriction code for a ticket.

The guard was completely wrong and I'd be pretty confident in saying that this is down to poor training. It's a pity you weren't charged an excess fare (a Penalty Fare cannot be issued in these circumstances) as this would provide clear evidence of wrong doing.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

I'm enjoying a drink at the pub just opposite Didcot Parkway and reflecting on my interaction with the GWR guard on the 1600 from Paddington.

I bought a Super Off Peak Single from Newtongrange station ticket machine this morning. When I did so machine told me of the restrictions on the ticket (nre.co.uk/1K, basically restrictions on arrival into London; my departure time rendered them moot), valid Any Permitted route, so I went off on my way to Waverley, then Kings Cross, then Paddington.

The ticket would not work the barrier at Paddington but I was allowed through by the person on the gate. I got on the train, found a seat etc, and heard an announcement that Super Off-Peak tickets were not valid. So I checked nre.co.uk/1K again, no mention of this at all.

Shortly before arriving at Didcot Parkway my ticket was checked and I was told it was not valid because it's Super Off-Peak, an announcement was made etc etc. I showed the guard the 1K webpage, which was countered with "Well, Paddington has its own rules, let me show you"

Ah yes, some GWR staff based at Paddington (or who serve Paddington) like to think that special rules apply to them; they're wrong.

before pulling up something on the handheld thing which showed that London-Didcot Parkway Off Peak was not valid on that service. "Fine", I said, "but I didn't start in London I started in Scotland this morning, why does the website printed on my ticket not mention Paddington's Rules at all?" and we went round in circles for a bit until the train actually got to Didcot Parkway and I was let off.

Good for you in standing up against this individual; please do put in a complaint and let us know how you get on.

However, previous complaints have not actually prevented this happening, and I can't see the situation changing, as there isn't any organisation or individual who can force GWR to put appropriate safeguards in place to avoid inappropriate behaviour and misleading and false claims being made by their staff.

I checked with the ticket office at Didcot Parkway who confirmed that all was in order and my ticket was valid (and sold me my ticket for the opposite journey, on Saturday, no worries about peak/offpeak).

My question is, what are these Paddington Rules and are they printed anywhere? I am aware that the staff at the gateline can be a law unto themselves but I'd have expected the information on the NRE site to be accepted by the on-train staff, regardless of what their device actually told them.

They are fictional and exist in the minds of some GWR staff.

Good to hear the staff ad Didcot Parkway are not party to this nonsense, and provided the correct information.

I once worked on the ticket office at a former NSE area station where local off peak tickets were only valid from 0930. The barriers were set up to reflect this. There were a number of exceptions to this rule for longer journeys, I found myself on some occasions having to escort the passenger to the gateline in order to explain to the gateline staff that the ticket was valid.

Good stuff

Unfortunately the railway has constructed a complicated fare system yet often has little interest in training staff how it works.

It's not that complicated; it just needs staff to be prepared to look things up and if they either don't understand it or aren't bothered to look, simply accept the ticket.

Of all the jobs I've done in my working life so far, understanding the concept of restriction codes really isn't up there among the most challenging of tasks!

 

[RPI]

The member of staff could easily have checked the validity of the ticket on their TTK machine, no excuses for not knowing the restrictions. Paddington most definitely doesn't have it's own rules.

 

[island]

Paddington most definitely doesn't have it's own rules.

It does in the sense that Paddington staff make them up.

 

[Snow1964]

Also very worrying that wrong announcements were apparently given multiple times, suggests GWR management isn't on top of things

Should never have been announced that (all) super off peak tickets are invalid, just some tickets are subject to restrictions.

And whilst (if they can be bothered) GWR management sort this, they need to get their laptops out and add 1K as valid to Paddington gateline so that doesn't incorrectly reject valid tickets.

 

[sh24]

I see and experience GWR as one of the better run TOC's - and with some excellent on train staff - so this is very disappointing to read.

 

[jfollows]

And whilst (if they can be bothered) GWR management sort this, they need to get their laptops out and add 1K as valid to Paddington gateline so that doesn't incorrectly reject valid tickets.

I seem to recall that the ticket gates don’t read the restriction code; in any case it’s primarily humans who cause the problem. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...aper-tickets-mag-stripes.162831/#post-3407054

 

[nitten_travell]

Also very worrying that wrong announcements were apparently given multiple times, suggests GWR management isn't on top of things

Should never have been announced that (all) super off peak tickets are invalid, just some tickets are subject to restrictions.

And whilst (if they can be bothered) GWR management sort this, they need to get their laptops out and add 1K as valid to Paddington gateline so that doesn't incorrectly reject valid tickets.

Multiple times and I also heard some other people (before the guard got to me) have a similar "no super off peak" discussion but as those passengers then paid more money I assume they were genuinely on the wrong train. Or simply didn't know/didn't have the energy to fight. It was those conversations which forewarned me that the guard might have a chat...

 

[DeverseSam]

However, previous complaints have not actually prevented this happening, and I can't see the situation changing, as there isn't any organisation or individual who can force GWR to put appropriate safeguards in place to avoid inappropriate behaviour and misleading and false claims being made by their staff.

Would it be reasonable to record such an interaction and post it here?

 

[father_jack]

Also very worrying that wrong announcements were apparently given multiple times, suggests GWR management isn't on top of things

Should never have been announced that (all) super off peak tickets are invalid, just some tickets are subject to restrictions.

And whilst (if they can be bothered) GWR management sort this, they need to get their laptops out and add 1K as valid to Paddington gateline so that doesn't incorrectly reject valid tickets.

In fairness the gateline operative at Paddington didn't appear to challenge the ticket despite it not automatically opening the gate. The "memory" on CUBIC gates is often full where not all restrictions can be accommodated.

 

[nitten_travell]

In fairness the gateline at Paddington didn't appear to challenge the ticket despite it not automatically opening the gate. The "memory" on CUBIC gates is often full where not all restrictions can be accommodated.

It didn't open the gate at Kings Cross either.

 

[Craig1122]

It's not that complicated; it just needs staff to be prepared to look things up and if they either don't understand it or aren't bothered to look, simply accept the ticket.

Of all the jobs I've done in my working life so far, understanding the concept of restriction codes really isn't up there among the most challenging of tasks!

I've been involved in training and some people really struggle to get the concept. I've got a theory it seems to be connected to whether people have a 'mental map' of the network in their head. To some people a single to the next station and a single to the other end of the country seemed to be mentally the same thing. So it was like they had to work out restrictions from scratch each time with no reference to a more abstract idea of how the system works.

That said it's a lot easier to access the information now than in the days of paper manuals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said it's a lot easier to access the information now than in the days of paper manuals.

I think that's the thing. The mentality needs to be "if in any doubt or if the passenger questions what you're saying, look it up and show them".

 

[Watershed]

Would it be reasonable to record such an interaction and post it here?

That would be legal - but quite apart from any possible objections on the grounds of it being unfair on the member of staff to do so, it would be largely pointless. GWR management have been reminded on many occasions that their staff are getting it wrong and evidently don't think it's a significant enough issue to warrant proper training.