Paddington NR to White City LU - single fare?

lightbulb

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Hello all,

I'm currently travelling on the Central line between Ealing Broadway and White City, having travelled from Paddington to Ealing Broadway on TfL Rail. I've just checked LTFares.com to find the correct fare for my journey, only to find no fare available. If I'd travelled wholly by LU the fare would be £1.90 (peak single with Disabled Persons Railcard). Does anyone know what I'll be touching out at White City? And why isn't there a fare for this route? It seems a sensible route to me!
 
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lightbulb

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The system ought to work out you changed at Ealing Broadway and charge you a Zone 1-3 peak single.
Yes, just touched out, and it charged £1.90. This raises the question as to why it's not shown in LTFares. I wonder how many other journeys there are where no fare is shown? Perhaps someone with expertise in this could interrogate the fares data and provide a list of any journeys with no fare available? These journeys could then be made, and if fares are charged, the fare data could then be updated?
 

superjohn

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That‘s a rather roundabout route, unnecessarily going via zone three. I would imagine the fares would be based on travelling via Notting Hill Gate or Wood Lane. These would mean entering at Paddington LU rather than NR, for which fares are in the database.
 

MikeWh

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There are lots of potential journeys with no fare defined. Many are nonsensical, like Fenchurch Street to Tower Hill, but plenty are eminently logical. The Oyster system will always charge a fare so it must have some understanding of the likely route taken.

Ltfares.com uses the same open data that powers the TfL single fare finder, and also my version at oysterfares.com/off. The latter also has additional info about zones covered and potential daily caps.
 

mmh

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That's not how Oyster works. Oyster will charge the 1-2 fare regardless of which zones you travelled through to get there
It's not as simple as that. It'll charge you the default fare defined between a pair of stations. There are lots of journeys where the default assumes travel via zone 1 which can be done a different way, for example, which is why the pink interchange readers exist at the places most commonly used to change trains avoiding zone 1.
 

mmh

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It's not as simple as that. It'll charge you the default fare defined between a pair of stations. There are lots of journeys where the default assumes travel via zone 1 which can be done a different way, for example, which is why the pink interchange readers exist at the places most commonly used to change trains avoiding zone 1.
Also, somewhat counter-intuitively, Oyster PAYG fares which include National Rail are not zonal.
 

Surreytraveller

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It's not as simple as that. It'll charge you the default fare defined between a pair of stations. There are lots of journeys where the default assumes travel via zone 1 which can be done a different way, for example, which is why the pink interchange readers exist at the places most commonly used to change trains avoiding zone 1.
Haha! I know its not quite as simple as I stated. Just merely trying to explain that PAYG Oyster doesn't work the same as having to have a paper Travelcard for the zones you're travelling through. As long as you have tapped in, then you are valid for the journey. So, the system will charge you for Zones 1&2 when travelling from Paddington to White City, even if you've gone via zone 3 to get there. Similar to going from Victoria to London Bridge changing at Stockwell - you'll only be charged zone 1 even though you've gone via zone 2
 

MikeWh

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Also, somewhat counter-intuitively, Oyster PAYG fares which include National Rail are not zonal.
What do you mean? They certainly are zonal, just not the same as TfL-set fares.
 

Indigo2

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This raises the question as to why it's not shown in LTFares. I wonder how many other journeys there are where no fare is shown? Perhaps someone with expertise in this could interrogate the fares data and provide a list of any journeys with no fare available?
My understanding is that the Oyster fares database is more sophisticated than what you see on http://www.ltfares.com/, https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/fares-guide/oyster-fare-finder/ or https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder - as MikeWh says, these are all based on the TfL API which was, I think, designed with journey planning in mind and the Oyster fares have been sort of "munged" (i.e. converted, potentially with some loss of information) into a different format to suit the way stations are defined in the TfL API. And I suspect some information has been lost along the way.

I have sometimes wondered if it might be possible to get access to the real, underlying Oyster fares database via some sort of FOI request, but I (as in the creator of LTfares.com) don't really have the time at present to work on any interesting results that might come of that, so I haven't pursued it myself.
 

si404

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That's not how Oyster works. Oyster will charge the 1-2 fare regardless of which zones you travelled through to get there
There is no route between Paddington NR and White City that doesn't go through zone 3 though - that Paddington NR is not the same thing as Paddington LU (either of them) on Oyster is the reason this thread exists.

There's a difference between, say, going to a zone 5 station on the District line, having used c2c to Upminster and doubled back, which Oyster has no way of knowing about whether you entered Z6, and doing something like this scenario, where the only way to go is via Z3.

It seems to be the case that, because they haven't defined this route via Ealing Broadway the system has assumed some sort of distruption caused the OP use the different gate line - which saved money as there's zero reason to go via zone 3 from Paddington to White City (most obvious route is to go to Wood Lane right nearby).
 

Indigo2

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It used to be that there wasn't a separate gateline for Paddington LU (Hammersmith & City Line), so maybe the Oyster fares database hasn't been fully updated to reflect that change?
 

Surreytraveller

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It used to be that there wasn't a separate gateline for Paddington LU (Hammersmith & City Line), so maybe the Oyster fares database hasn't been fully updated to reflect that change?
I imagine there is no route in the system for this journey, therefore it just defaults to zone 1 to zone 2. I wonder if, when someone does a journey not in the system, it flags up somewhere for someone to have a look at?
 

JonathanH

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I imagine there is no route in the system for this journey, therefore it just defaults to zone 1 to zone 2. I wonder if, when someone does a journey not in the system, it flags up somewhere for someone to have a look at?
If so then I'm waiting for them to contact me about the journey I made from the Paddington platform 6/7 gateline to Ealing Broadway earlier this week for £2.80. It isn't clear that there is any provision under the Oyster / Contactless arrangements to charge an additional fare simply because you take an obscure route. It simply matters where you touch in and out provided you do so within the time.
 
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JonathanH

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What is your query? Surely that is the (off peak) fare for that journey?
It would seem reasonable for it be set at £22 given that the only way of travelling between those locations (other than in severe disruption) is via Heathrow Airport.

The person I quoted was raising the idea that someone analyses unusual journeys.
 

MikeWh

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If so then I'm waiting for them to contact me about the journey I made from the Paddington platform 6/7 gateline to Ealing Broadway earlier this week for £2.80. It isn't clear that there is any provision under the Oyster / Contactless arrangements to charge an additional fare simply because you take an obscure route. It simply matters where you touch in and out provided you do so within the time.
Assuming that platforms 6/7 are the Hex platforms you'll probably find that the system is set up to charge the correct fare if you go anywhere other than Heathrow. That's certainly the case with platforms 13/14 at Victoria. This avoids unnecessary grief if a normal service train uses the express platforms in a disruption situation.
 

mmh

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What do you mean? They certainly are zonal, just not the same as TfL-set fares.
An example from a journey I occasionally do: Norwood Junction to Euston has different fares depending on a change to London Underground at Elephant and Castle vs changing at London Bridge or Victoria, despite travelling through the same zones.
 

MikeWh

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An example from a journey I occasionally do: Norwood Junction to Euston has different fares depending on a change to London Underground at Elephant and Castle vs changing at London Bridge or Victoria, despite travelling through the same zones.
The Elephant and Castle fares are special ones because it is a dual zoned 1/2 station. You are paying the combination of NR Norwood Junction to Elephant & Castle plus a zone 1 TfL fare.
 

Joe Paxton

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The Elephant and Castle fares are special ones because it is a dual zoned 1/2 station. You are paying the combination of NR Norwood Junction to Elephant & Castle plus a zone 1 TfL fare.
And just to be clear, this arrangement works to the benefit of passengers lest any casual reader might think otherwise!
 

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