Panoramic cars for scenic lines...

[quantinghome]

Are we missing a trick in the UK? There are many British lines with wonderful scenery which have great tourist potential. Settle-Carlisle, Highland, West Highland, Welsh and Cumbrian coasts. Why not add some panoramic cars to selected services? With first class seating and a decent restaurant service. Britain can't quite compete with the Alps for views but surely with some decent marketing this would be a money-spinner?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Didn't something like this used to be done on the mid-morning weekday service from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh in the 1980's?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we missing a trick in the UK? There are many British lines with wonderful scenery which have great tourist potential. Settle-Carlisle, Highland, West Highland, Welsh and Cumbrian coasts. Why not add some panoramic cars to selected services? With first class seating and a decent restaurant service. Britain can't quite compete with the Alps for views but surely with some decent marketing this would be a money-spinner?

Agreed. Would require new stock orders, though. Stadler would pretty much do it off the shelf for the FLIRT.

 

[quantinghome]

Agreed. Would require new stock orders, though. Stadler would pretty much do it off the shelf for the FLIRT.

Yes, I was thinking it could be a variation to whatever we need to order to replace the 15Xs in the next decade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW, panoramic or no, First Class is money for old rope on scenic routes, even if all you get is a lukewarm cup of tea and a sandwich. The coach tours would love it.

It seems utterly bizarre to me that the West Highland Line doesn't have it, for one.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Are we missing a trick in the UK? There are many British lines with wonderful scenery which have great tourist potential. Settle-Carlisle, Highland, West Highland, Welsh and Cumbrian coasts. Why not add some panoramic cars to selected services? With first class seating and a decent restaurant service. Britain can't quite compete with the Alps for views but surely with some decent marketing this would be a money-spinner?

Isn't this what some of the 'private charter' type operations already do, typically at hundreds of pounds per ticket, to cover the very high costs of ad-hoc staffing, traction provision, maintenance, empty stock moves, etc.?

This is usually with modified 'normal' stock, though. Obviously brand new vehicles with glass roofs and so on would increase costs and ticket prices even more.

 

[6Gman]

Are we missing a trick in the UK? There are many British lines with wonderful scenery which have great tourist potential. Settle-Carlisle, Highland, West Highland, Welsh and Cumbrian coasts. Why not add some panoramic cars to selected services? With first class seating and a decent restaurant service. Britain can't quite compete with the Alps for views but surely with some decent marketing this would be a money-spinner?

I very much doubt it would be a money-spinner.

There is a very small niche market for high-end rail touring, currently met by specialists using retired (from general service) rolling stock.

Since most of the routes you mention use Sprinter-based rolling stock would Sprinter-compatible stock really appeal to the market?

 

[Western 52]

Maybe we could take some ideas from the tourist trains they run in Japan? Often just high standard DMU refurbishments but they are popular and profitable. Which UK DMU class would we choose though?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe we could take some ideas from the tourist trains they run in Japan? Often just high standard DMU refurbishments but they are popular and profitable. Which UK DMU class would we choose though?!

Well, ScotRail were going to do it with the Inverness 158s (all tables window-aligned) and then didn't, not that they're bad but they kept the roughly half-and-half layout.

170s very nearly are panoramic, the windows are huge and the pillars very narrow. Just stick 2+1 seating in aligned with them. For "true" 1st, give a table bay the window plus both pillars, alternating with a single airline row with excellent legroom and a proper table.

 

[Iskra]

Isn't this what some of the 'private charter' type operations already do, typically at hundreds of pounds per ticket, to cover the very high costs of ad-hoc staffing, traction provision, maintenance, empty stock moves, etc.?

This is usually with modified 'normal' stock, though. Obviously brand new vehicles with glass roofs and so on would increase costs and ticket prices even more.

That's just a symptom of an inadequate and inflexible rolling stock provision system we have in the UK, that is more about profiteering and sweating of assets than it is about providing rolling stock. The worst part is, it's entirely unnecessary. Those providers are proving a market exists, and that you could gain a lot by undercutting them...

The Swiss can manage it, the Canadians can manage it, even Amtrak can manage it and we've had multiple incarnations of it in this country before on the West Highland Line and on the ECML to name just two examples. I think it could work year-round on the West Highland network to Fort William and Oban, but I wouldn't want to compete against WCRC steam on the Mallaig extension proper as that's substantially more risky. Scotrail have a daytime monopoly on the line between Glasgow and Fort William; thus they should seek to provide even more amenities for the lucrative tourist market on lines that are stunning year-round.

 

[Western 52]

Yes a 170 done very nicely inside with an eye-catching livery and some form of high standard catering. Good advertising and a scenic route should work. The business model seems sound in Japan so why not here?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Didn't something like this used to be done on the mid-morning weekday service from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh in the 1980's?

It seems utterly bizarre to me that the West Highland Line doesn't have it, for one.

In the 60s Observation cars ran:
Inverness to Kyle
Glasgow to Oban (via Stirling - and I'm pretty sure continued via Garelochhead when the old Caley route closed).
Glasgow to Fort Williiam
Fort William to Mallaig
With turntables at all termini they were turned and always on the rear of the train with the receding view through the end windows.

The first two were ex Devon Belle cars - one still running to Kingswear, to fort William and Mallaig they were the ex LNER cars with ends rebuilt to provide a better view (I think both are preserved - I travelled in one on John Cameron's Lochty Private Railway behind Union of South Africa (propelled on the return trip)).

Early 80s BR tried again using ex LMS and LNER inspection saloons Fort William to Mallaig, and an ex DMU driving car to Kyle.

Like everything today cost of provision would be the issue.

The Swiss have long recognised people will pay a premium for a better view in more comfort, in the UK a Business Case would be required with the those against reluctant to take a punt on what, taking the long term view, might well prove to be a commercial success. Over to you Transport Scotland - with pressure from local Tourist Boards!

EDIT: Or maybe a Grant Aided project for West Coast Railways to do a complete rebuild on a couple of coaches for use on the Jacobite, probably less seats but revenue protected by a premium fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking a bit further south from Scotland, using Class 150s on the Conwy Valley is such a missed opportunity - you have a spectacularly scenic line then you run trains on it with terrible window alignment (though admittedly the TfW /2s aren't as bad as /1s on which no seat has an acceptable view). The 197s promise to be no better. Perhaps dedicate one 197 set and rejig the seats to line up with the windows, which are quite big?

You could actually do something quite good with a D-train - the windows are huge - though I'm not sure it has the requisite premium feel.

 

[StripeyNick]

The idea is great but even on these scenic lines, I think there'd need to be a huge amount of vegetation clearance otherwise you'd just be sitting in a nicer piece of stock with bigger windows to see the trees!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The idea is great but even on these scenic lines, I think there'd need to be a huge amount of vegetation clearance otherwise you'd just be sitting in a nicer piece of stock with bigger windows to see the trees!

Good point. Still a great idea though. I have taken the scenic train from Cuzco Peru to Machu Picchu and return. The viewing car with clear ceilings etc really made it. I think it is a good idea if a few TOCS order the required stock so there is some cost saving by a larger order. Almost worth starting a thread on what lines in the whole of the UK would you use them on.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That's just a symptom of an inadequate and inflexible rolling stock provision system we have in the UK, that is more about profiteering and sweating of assets than it is about providing rolling stock. The worst part is, it's entirely unnecessary. Those providers are proving a market exists, and that you could gain a lot by undercutting them...

<SNIP>

I am struggling to understand this. There are quite a number of providers with 'heritage'/previously-loved/re-furbished stock from luxury 'Pullmans'/'Orient Express' down to clapped-out Mark Is. There are also several licensed niche train operators plus the FOCs. Infinitely more competition than there was in BR's day. The market would appear to be 'competitive' (unless you are alleging that there is some sort of 'fixing' going on). I realise that things like slam doors, droplights, accessibility and retention toilets may well mean that some of this stock is reaching the end of its usefulness.

I see no evidence of either profiteering or asset sweating in this sector. Places like Carnforth and Burton seem to be full of relatively little-used equipment even outside the current Covid lockdowns.

Would 'scenic' trains really be packed with punters on a gloomy Tuesday in February?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would 'scenic' trains really be packed with punters on a gloomy Tuesday in February?

No, but if you were talking of something like a 3-car DMU with the middle coach being scenic (which is the kind of kit Stadler do for the Swiss narrow gauge operations - imagine something like a Sheffield tram with the middle coach with panoramic windows), normal passengers would use it "out of season" instead.

 

[Iskra]

I am struggling to understand this. There are quite a number of providers with 'heritage'/previously-loved/re-furbished stock from luxury 'Pullmans'/'Orient Express' down to clapped-out Mark Is. There are also several licensed niche train operators plus the FOCs. Infinitely more competition than there was in BR's day. The market would appear to be 'competitive' (unless you are alleging that there is some sort of 'fixing' going on). I realise that things like slam doors, droplights, accessibility and retention toilets may well mean that some of this stock is reaching the end of its usefulness.

I see no evidence of either profiteering or asset sweating in this sector. Places like Carnforth and Burton seem to be full of relatively little-used equipment even outside the current Covid lockdowns.

Would 'scenic' trains really be packed with punters on a gloomy Tuesday in February?

Yes, but none of them are bound by the same terms, obligations and economics as franchised operators, so they are totally irrelevant to adding a panoramic car to a service train. You can't just add a clapped-out Mk1 or even a Pullman dining kitchen car Mk1 to a 156 and operate it on a service train for many reasons. And as stated, there is very limited competition on the Glasgow-Fort William section of line, so Scotrail can capitalise on that, with a little imagination.

No, but if you were talking of something like a 3-car DMU with the middle coach being scenic (which is the kind of kit Stadler do for the Swiss narrow gauge operations - imagine something like a Sheffield tram with the middle coach with panoramic windows), normal passengers would use it "out of season" instead.

Precisely. You could either sell it all year round, at a reduced price out of season or with a reduced offering (ie make complimentary tea and biscuits unavailable in winter etc), or perhaps even make it a compatible carriage that can be removed from a set out of the tourist season if that was desired. Having travelled the West Highland Line in winter, I can assure the naysayers that it does a good tourist trade even then, if anything it gets even nicer and cheaper to travel, and an improved offering may encourage even more people to travel the journey;




When the 156's retire, it will be a massive opportunity for Scotrail in the West Highlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW this is the sort of thing I had in mind:

Stadler panoramic EMU for Matterhorn-Gotthard-Bahn - Railway Gazette

Obviously high-floor, longer vehicles, DMU (or hydrogen) rather than EMU, standard gauge etc, but you get the idea. Stadler does lots of this sort of thing. Though even the standard FLIRT has pretty big windows, particularly in the low-floor bit. Or even, dare I say it, downrated Voyagers, perhaps with half the engines removed? Biggest windows of any UK stock, and the raked bodysides means you can look up out of them as well as sideways, good for mountains.

 

[E100]

Entirely agree. I think there's a large potential market with some clever marketing, particularly in the highlands but also other key scenic routes like Settle and Carlisle. Some marketing along the lines of Caledonian Sleeper could go a long way if you are able to strip away the negative implementation! Ideally without the large price increase - a reservation supplement perhaps on longer end to end journeys - protecting the local intermediate usage (or supplement free for highland railcard holders).

We definitely have the scenery, which some tactical tree trimming will only improve. The international market has been growing year on year with the Jacobite becoming harder and harder to book onto in the past few years. An idea would be a premium version of the recent grand tour ticket. Ideally with a panoramic [road] coach connecting Mallaig to Kyle via Portree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Entirely agree. I think there's a large potential market with some clever marketing, particularly in the highlands but also other key scenic routes like Settle and Carlisle. Some marketing along the lines of Caledonian Sleeper could go a long way if you are able to strip away the negative implementation! Ideally without the large price increase - a reservation supplement perhaps on longer end to end journeys - protecting the local intermediate usage (or supplement free for highland railcard holders).

Probably least complex just to make it First Class at an uplift, and the other two coaches Standard at normal fares. You could potentially declassify it in winter if the demand isn't there for the full service, or offer a fairly bargainous upgrade e.g. £5 a pop - still money for old rope.

 

[E100]

Probably least complex just to make it First Class at an uplift, and the other two coaches Standard at normal fares. You could potentially declassify it in winter if the demand isn't there for the full service, or offer a fairly bargainous upgrade e.g. £5 a pop.

Actually that's a much better and simpler idea :P

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yes, but none of them are bound by the same terms, obligations and economics as franchised operators, so they are totally irrelevant to adding a panoramic car to a service train. You can't just add a clapped-out Mk1 or even a Pullman dining kitchen car Mk1 to a 156 and operate it on a service train for many reasons. And as stated, there is very limited competition on the Glasgow-Fort William section of line, so Scotrail can capitalise on that, with a little imagination.

Those providers [of 'private charter' type trains] are proving a market exists, and that you could gain a lot by undercutting them...

I am still waiting to see your 'business case' (let alone technical case) for effectively 'new' (presumably diesel-powered for the time being) luxury/panoramic/restaurant vehicles suitable to form centre cars for established franchised services on any of the routes suggested cheaper than a ROSCO might charge.

(I don't think that a Class 153 converted into a mobile bike shed is quite the 'experience' that this thread is about. Even that hasn't really been plain sailing.)

 

[popeter45]

would the UK gauge have enough space to comfitably do the US style of observation cars? (outward facing longitudical seats/swivel Seats)
could look cool on a 3 car 170 with that done to the middle car

 

[Iskra]

Entirely agree. I think there's a large potential market with some clever marketing, particularly in the highlands but also other key scenic routes like Settle and Carlisle. Some marketing along the lines of Caledonian Sleeper could go a long way if you are able to strip away the negative implementation! Ideally without the large price increase - a reservation supplement perhaps on longer end to end journeys - protecting the local intermediate usage (or supplement free for highland railcard holders).

We definitely have the scenery, which some tactical tree trimming will only improve. The international market has been growing year on year with the Jacobite becoming harder and harder to book onto in the past few years. An idea would be a premium version of the recent grand tour ticket. Ideally with a panoramic [road] coach connecting Mallaig to Kyle via Portree.

They also introduced the second daily service too, so they've doubled capacity in addition to that.

Probably least complex just to make it First Class at an uplift, and the other two coaches Standard at normal fares. You could potentially declassify it in winter if the demand isn't there for the full service, or offer a fairly bargainous upgrade e.g. £5 a pop - still money for old rope.

I agree this is the way to go.

I am still waiting to see your 'business case' (let alone technical case) for effectively 'new' (presumably diesel-powered for the time being) luxury/panoramic/restaurant vehicles suitable to form centre cars for established franchised services on any of the routes suggested cheaper than a ROSCO might charge.

(I don't think that a Class 153 converted into a mobile bike shed is quite the 'experience' that this thread is about. Even that hasn't really been plain sailing.)

You will be waiting a long time.

The stock is going to need replacing soon so it's effectively a marginal additional cost anyway, which is why now is the time.

Running 156's with poor seats on these lines on a 3 hour journey is probably suppressing journey demand anyway and the Caledonian Sleeper has re-pivoted to cater for the type of tourist we are talking about, so they obviously believe the market exists too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The stock is going to need replacing soon so it's effectively a marginal additional cost anyway, which is why now is the time.

Exactly. There is, nationally, going to have to be a replacement of a load of 150s, 153s and 156s used on scenic lines within about 10 years - the time to do something like this is then, and it's a once-in-30-years opportunity for the costs to be negligible as you're having to buy new stock anyway, so speccing a different window and seat layout on one of the three vehicles is not a huge thing to do, particularly if you go for CAF or Stadler who are already known to be able to do fiddling with window layouts, and are indeed the only two suppliers presently offering a new UK DMU.

 

[Irascible]

Can we not just build 158 replacements with panoramic windows anyway? if there's a particular market on a line the locals can swap the seating around a bit, otherwise the rest of us get to enjoy what's quite often spectacular scenery anyway on our normal journeys.

 

[E100]

I think whatever is replacing the 156's on the west highland line needs to be somewhat bespoke to UK loading gauge, as they were wanting to put the 158's on there but couldn't get full route clearance for whatever reason.

The 153 conversion and relatively recent 156 refurb means this will be at least a few years out. Would expect an order sometime in the mid 2020's for something to arrive at the back end of the decade. Plently of time for the economy to hopefully get back up to steam and ideally not have some major wobbles (he says staring into his crystal ball!)

 

[HST43257]

What about some sort of hydrogen Bimode version of the 755? Narrow power area would probably be at one end of the train, with first at the other end. Equally, this makes the arguement that you’d be better with a hydrogen/electric loco, with a few panoramic coaches and a DT at the other end? Equally once again, one may just suggest a hydrogen/electric version of the Matterhorn-Gotthard-Bahn, as @Bletchleyite spoke about.

 

[Irascible]

I think whatever is replacing the 156's on the west highland line needs to be somewhat bespoke to UK loading gauge, as they were wanting to put the 158's on there but couldn't get full route clearance for whatever reason.

The 153 conversion and relatively recent 156 refurb means this will be at least a few years out. Would expect an order sometime in the mid 2020's for something to arrive at the back end of the decade. Plently of time for the economy to hopefully get back up to steam and ideally not have some major wobbles (he says staring into his crystal ball!)

All the 158/159s ( there are rather a lot ) and even the 16x are going to be up for replacement over the same period - as they're all regional units & tend to work in scenic areas anyway it might be worth trying to buy in bulk rather than in the current piecemeal fashion, which might help bring the cost of such an awkward design requirement down. Mind you we're about to kick the system over anyway, so maybe some more centralised thinking will turn up just in time.

Southwest, Wales, Pennine areas, Scotland, all worth a look out the window every day.