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Paper Roll Ranger Tickets

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Bletchleyite

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If only barcodes were used elsewhere in modern life...

Most applications of barcodes in normal life involve scanning the barcode with your phone (which is quite easy to line up) or don't involve time pressure. I do think the "phone face down at knee height" readers are awkward to use myself. Camera-based readers (rather than laser) mounted on top of the gate facing downwards with a small screen showing what the camera can see would speed things up considerably. The wide gate could be fitted with two so they are usable from wheelchair-user height.
 
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RPI

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At the risk of going off-topic, on-board sales on SNCB/NMBS (and even penalty fares) are issued as disposable smartcards that are not printed on :D
I'm assuming they're plastic? If so then more single use plastic which isn't good! (If they're not plastic then fair enough)
 

Haywain

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I'm assuming they're plastic? If so then more single use plastic which isn't good! (If they're not plastic then fair enough)
Disposable smartcards are usually card with embedded metal, so difficult to recycle. Not that much better than plastic.
 

johncrossley

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Some ticket offices have been issuing etickets for several years, yes. Obviously that's not any improvement if the customer doesn't have a suitable device.

I mean buying a Ranger online. As far as I can see the ticket in question can only be bought at a ticket office.
 

XAM2175

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Disposable smartcards are usually card with embedded metal, so difficult to recycle. Not that much better than plastic.
I know that the Dutch operators do at least apply a surcharge for buying a disposable smartcard, but I can't speak for the Belgians. The advantage for the operator is that these tickets can work the same barriers as used for the long-life cards, obviating the immediate need to retrofit barcode scanners (but not resolving the question raised by a greater uptake of non-physical tickets).

I have noted in the past that using disposable smartcards could be a workaround for London Underground's refusal to accept barcoded tickets, as they can be printed with the ticket details like the current CCST but also made to work LU's barriers, but I accept (as in the paragraph before this) that it does nothing for e-ticket users that the ticket-on-demand system doesn't do already.

There's also the Hong Kong approach, which is not at all practical here but still interesting - single tickets on the MTR are issued as long-life smartcards that are captured by the barriers on exit and then returned to the vending machines to be sold again.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know that the Dutch operators do at least apply a surcharge for buying a disposable smartcard, but I can't speak for the Belgians. The advantage for the operator is that these tickets can work the same barriers as used for the long-life cards, obviating the immediate need to retrofit barcode scanners (but not resolving the question raised by a greater uptake of non-physical tickets).

That's true of a purely commuter type network, but one with Advance-ticketed long distance services needs non-smartcard ticketing as well, so the UK will need barcode scanners for the foreseeable (at least until things have filtered through enough that domestic printers are a near-unknown thing and all mobile phones in common use have NFC to use instead).

I have noted in the past that using disposable smartcards could be a workaround for London Underground's refusal to accept barcoded tickets, as they can be printed with the ticket details like the current CCST but also made to work LU's barriers, but I accept (as in the paragraph before this) that it does nothing for e-ticket users that the ticket-on-demand system doesn't do already.

LU would save a packet if they could decommission the magstripe reading kit. To accept railway through tickets you'd need barcode readers at the London termini, not elsewhere - that's only about 10 stations, which would cost pocket money. That leaves the outboundary Travelcard (day and period) - issuing those on ITSO only is not beyond the wit of man. People increasingly use a day return and contactless anyway; the main benefit of outboundary day Travelcards is Railcard holders, and all seasons will be ITSO before too long anyway.

There's also the Hong Kong approach, which is not at all practical here but still interesting - single tickets on the MTR are issued as long-life smartcards that are captured by the barriers on exit and then returned to the vending machines to be sold again.

Singapore does that as well - not cards, but large plastic "coins" about the size of a £2 coin.
 

Haywain

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Singapore does that as well - not cards, but large plastic "coins" about the size of a £2 coin.
I don't recall that in Singapore but saw the same thing in Kuala Lumpur, with various shapes and size of tokens.
 

Chriso

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I know that the Dutch operators do at least apply a surcharge for buying a disposable smartcard, but I can't speak for the Belgians. The advantage for the operator is that these tickets can work the same barriers as used for the long-life cards, obviating the immediate need to retrofit barcode scanners (but not resolving the question raised by a greater uptake of non-physical tickets).

I have noted in the past that using disposable smartcards could be a workaround for London Underground's refusal to accept barcoded tickets, as they can be printed with the ticket details like the current CCST but also made to work LU's barriers, but I accept (as in the paragraph before this) that it does nothing for e-ticket users that the ticket-on-demand system doesn't do already.

There's also the Hong Kong approach, which is not at all practical here but still interesting - single tickets on the MTR are issued as long-life smartcards that are captured by the barriers on exit and then returned to the vending machines to be sold again.

I experienced this on the Kuala Lumpur airport rail link a few years ago and found it very strange but I can see the benefits
 

island

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I don't recall that in Singapore but saw the same thing in Kuala Lumpur, with various shapes and size of tokens.
Singapore issues all tickets as cards (not the “coin” things Bletchleyite refers to; I suspect he is mixing his countries up). They used to charge an extra $1 deposit on reusable single journey plastic cards but now they charge only 10 cents and issue a paper RFID card, and even that small amount is returned if the ticket is reused twice. The cards are not returnable.
 

banjo125

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Why not sell these tickets as e-tickets? Then you don't need any paper or card.
My personal opinion is if I've got a ticket is I don't want an e-ticket, if the technology fails on you or you loose your device then where is your ticket then?
If I've purchased a ticket I'm far happier having a physical ticket in my hand
 

py_megapixel

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The important part isn’t even the magnetic stripe, it’s the intuitive slot that consumes and reads the ticket. That could work with barcode tickets too, as long as they were consistent size and format. But of course that machinery is the expensive element this is being sought to remove, at the expense of the passenger experience.
I'm really not in favour of slots in the gates if at all avoidable. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, the current gates jamming, while not too much of a frequent occurrence, is far from unheard of, But secondly, one of the advantages of the barcode system from a passenger perspective is that the ticket can't be "eaten" at the end of the journey - a behaviour which is often unwanted and, in my humble opinion, unnecessary, considering that barcode tickets already have technological measures against reuse.
 

Wallsendmag

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My personal opinion is if I've got a ticket is I don't want an e-ticket, if the technology fails on you or you loose your device then where is your ticket then?
If I've purchased a ticket I'm far happier having a physical ticket in my hand
If you don't trust your device print the PDF what's so hard about that?
 

py_megapixel

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If you don't trust your device print the PDF what's so hard about that?
Printers in the home are slowly but surely dying (and good riddance to them!)

I think a lot of the fear of e-tickets comes from the amount of responsibility they transfer from the railway to the passenger. On CCTS and even PRT tickets, if the ticket office printer doesn't work, the TVM has a fault, or the magstripe on your ticket was faulty and won't open the gates, the passenger can be reasonably sure that it will not be considered their fault. However, if their printer doesn't work, their device's battery has run out, or the ticketing app doesn't work properly on their device, it is likely to be blamed on them. I can see why that transfer is very attractive to TOCs, but I think the concern caused among passengers is reasonable.

That said, I personally accept that the risk of those things happening is very small, and I have done many a journey on e-tickets now without any such issues arising. However, I'm not quite satisfied enough that I would be at all happy if the industry tried to push towards a locked-down format like the old m-tickets - I value the fact that at the moment, within reason, I can essentially store and display the ticket however I like.
 

KeithMcC

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Printers in the home are slowly but surely dying (and good riddance to them!)

I think a lot of the fear of e-tickets comes from the amount of responsibility they transfer from the railway to the passenger. On CCTS and even PRT tickets, if the ticket office printer doesn't work, the TVM has a fault, or the magstripe on your ticket was faulty and won't open the gates, the passenger can be reasonably sure that it will not be considered their fault. However, if their printer doesn't work, their device's battery has run out, or the ticketing app doesn't work properly on their device, it is likely to be blamed on them. I can see why that transfer is very attractive to TOCs, but I think the concern caused among passengers is reasonable.

That said, I personally accept that the risk of those things happening is very small, and I have done many a journey on e-tickets now without any such issues arising. However, I'm not quite satisfied enough that I would be at all happy if the industry tried to push towards a locked-down format like the old m-tickets - I value the fact that at the moment, within reason, I can essentially store and display the ticket however I like.
I would agree with all of that. I have missed a train when my 'phone threw a wobbly and wouldn't unlock until it was restarted, which takes a couple of minutes, and they were not going to let me through the gateline. I have gone with paper tickets since (assuming my local station's solitary machine is working, which it often isn't!)
Seoul in S Korea have another solution - you have to buy a smartcard to use for your journey, but when you finish there are machines that will swallow them and return the deposit in cash. It took us a while to suss this out the first time until someone who spoke English explained!
The Dutch have bar code readers as you can now buy and use tickets on the NS app, so saving the smartcard deposit (and the need to have lots of change as many machines at smaller stations don't take cards or notes).
 

alistairlees

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Printers in the home are slowly but surely dying (and good riddance to them!)

I think a lot of the fear of e-tickets comes from the amount of responsibility they transfer from the railway to the passenger. On CCTS and even PRT tickets, if the ticket office printer doesn't work, the TVM has a fault, or the magstripe on your ticket was faulty and won't open the gates, the passenger can be reasonably sure that it will not be considered their fault. However, if their printer doesn't work, their device's battery has run out, or the ticketing app doesn't work properly on their device, it is likely to be blamed on them. I can see why that transfer is very attractive to TOCs, but I think the concern caused among passengers is reasonable.

That said, I personally accept that the risk of those things happening is very small, and I have done many a journey on e-tickets now without any such issues arising. However, I'm not quite satisfied enough that I would be at all happy if the industry tried to push towards a locked-down format like the old m-tickets - I value the fact that at the moment, within reason, I can essentially store and display the ticket however I like.
I'm glad you prefer eTickets to m-tickets. The reason that eTickets have won, and that m-tickets are dying out, is because some of us fought very hard indeed to get this change to happen.

It's not often remarked upon, but the unreliability of TVMs for collecting ToD (you usually need the right payment card; sometimes the card reader or screen on the TVM does not work; sometimes the printer does not work; sometimes there's a long queue; etc.) probably causes at least as many issues and angst for customers as does something that they control and know very well (their phone).
 

johncrossley

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The Dutch have bar code readers as you can now buy and use tickets on the NS app, so saving the smartcard deposit (and the need to have lots of change as many machines at smaller stations don't take cards or notes).

I thought that all machines take cards and only some take coins. No machine takes notes.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's not often remarked upon, but the unreliability of TVMs for collecting ToD (you usually need the right payment card; sometimes the card reader or screen on the TVM does not work; sometimes the printer does not work; sometimes there's a long queue; etc.) probably causes at least as many issues and angst for customers as does something that they control and know very well (their phone).

Indeed. There have been many, many threads on here about failures of the ToD process. Certainly I don't trust it enough to use it without collecting well in advance of the train.

I mostly still use the TVM for walk-ups, but that's just because I can get a ticket out of one quicker than I can get my phone to produce one, as the former typically doesn't involve faffing with a journey planner but the latter does.
 

KeithMcC

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I thought that all machines take cards and only some take coins. No machine takes notes.
I have nearly been stuck at a rural station that only took coins. I had just enough Euros and was left with about 25c! Hence I now use the app if I go to Holland.
 

Hadders

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LU would save a packet if they could decommission the magstripe reading kit. To accept railway through tickets you'd need barcode readers at the London termini, not elsewhere - that's only about 10 stations, which would cost pocket money. That leaves the outboundary Travelcard (day and period) - issuing those on ITSO only is not beyond the wit of man. People increasingly use a day return and contactless anyway; the main benefit of outboundary day Travelcards is Railcard holders, and all seasons will be ITSO before too long anyway
55 Underground/DLR stations are listed as where you may start and finish cross London connections.
 

Bletchleyite

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55 Underground/DLR stations are listed as where you may start and finish cross London connections.

Presumably that's just all the stations in zone 1 plus a few outer ones (I can't be bothered counting them but it sounds about right), as you're allowed to finish early and walk/pay for the rest yourself when you resume? Hardly anybody will be doing that (I bet most people don't even know you can - certainly I've come across staff who didn't know) so I don't think continuing to provide it is necessary.
 

py_megapixel

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It's not often remarked upon, but the unreliability of TVMs for collecting ToD (you usually need the right payment card; sometimes the card reader or screen on the TVM does not work; sometimes the printer does not work; sometimes there's a long queue; etc.) probably causes at least as many issues and angst for customers as does something that they control and know very well (their phone).
Absolutely true, and that's why these days I prefer e-tickets - I've had enough bad experiences with getting ticket machines to work properly (especially those damn Flowbird machines, but I've complained about those more than enough on this forum already!) and having valid cards and booking references rejected for ToD that I think I trust my own equipment more.

That said, I'm a fairly technology-oriented person, so if my phone is playing up I will generally have some idea what is going on, or failing that some other way I can show the ticket. I could understand how someone less familiar with the technology or with the railway network might prefer that the responsibility for ensuring the ticketing equipment works properly was entirely on the TOC.
 

Hadders

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Presumably that's just all the stations in zone 1 plus a few outer ones (I can't be bothered counting them but it sounds about right), as you're allowed to finish early and walk/pay for the rest yourself when you resume? Hardly anybody will be doing that (I bet most people don't even know you can - certainly I've come across staff who didn't know) so I don't think continuing to provide it is necessary.
Here's the list

AldgateFinsbury ParkShepherds Bush
AmershamGreenwich (DLR)Southwark
Baker StreetHighbury & IslingtonStratford
BalhamKensington OlympiaStratford International (DLR)
BankKentish TownTottenham Hale
BarkingKings Cross / St PancrasTower Hill
BlackfriarsLancaster GateUpminster
Blackhorse RoadLewisham (DLR)Vauxhall
BrixtonLimehouseVictoria
Canada WaterLiverpool StreetWalthamstow Central
Cannon StreetLondon BridgeWaterloo
Charing CrossMaryleboneWest Brompton
Ealing BroadwayMoorgateWest Ham
Edgware RoadOld StreetWest Hampstead
Elephant & CastlePaddingtonWhitechapel
EmbankmentQueens ParkWimbledon
EustonRichmondWoolwich Arsenal (DLR)
Euston SquareSeven Sisters
FarringdonShadwell
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks - more than I thought. I still suspect, though, that even if you provided barcode readers at all of those (and you wouldn't necessarily need it at all of them, as at some of them you don't have to pass a gateline to interchange, or the gateline is already a NR managed one) it would be considerably cheaper than maintaining magstripe reading kit at all 270 Tube stations.
 

cactustwirly

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Thanks - more than I thought. I still suspect, though, that even if you provided barcode readers at all of those (and you wouldn't necessarily need it at all of them, as at some of them you don't have to pass a gateline to interchange, or the gateline is already a NR managed one) it would be considerably cheaper than maintaining magstripe reading kit at all 270 Tube stations.

Magstripes are still needed for outboundary travelcards
 

Bletchleyite

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Magstripes are still needed for outboundary travelcards

As I've mentioned above, it won't be long before seasons are ITSO only, and it'd probably not be too hard to issue outboundary day Travelcards on ITSO only too. Merseyrail Saveaways are mostly issued on ITSO now, to use another example of that kind of ticket.
 

biko

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I thought that all machines take cards and only some take coins. No machine takes notes.
This is true for all NS stations
I have nearly been stuck at a rural station that only took coins. I had just enough Euros and was left with about 25c! Hence I now use the app if I go to Holland.
You were probably at a station not served by NS, those can have other types of machines which are limited in their functions.

In practice nearly nobody uses a machine to buy tickets, people either use their smartcard or an e-ticket on their phone. Dutch trains don't do advances except on international trains and those just contain a QR-code which opens all gates in the country on the day of validity if I recall correctly.
 

Wallsendmag

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This is true for all NS stations

You were probably at a station not served by NS, those can have other types of machines which are limited in their functions.

In practice nearly nobody uses a machine to buy tickets, people either use their smartcard or an e-ticket on their phone. Dutch trains don't do advances except on international trains and those just contain a QR-code which opens all gates in the country on the day of validity if I recall correctly.
Our last holiday was to Holland and we used our FIP passes a lot. We seemed to be the only people on the train with a paper ticket.
 

island

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I thought that all machines take cards and only some take coins. No machine takes notes.
That’s true on the NS network, though acceptance of foreign cards was historically patchy with many machines only taking Dutch-issued Maestro debit cards. Not sure if this has progressed.
 

johncrossley

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That’s true on the NS network, though acceptance of foreign cards was historically patchy with many machines only taking Dutch-issued Maestro debit cards. Not sure if this has progressed.

That changed years ago. All NS machines take Visa, MasterCard and American Express.
 
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