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Paper tickets vs E-tickets

Which is best ticketing style (in opinion)?

  • Credit card style paper tickets

  • E-tickets

  • Smartcard

  • Bar code paper tickets


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Techniquest

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I too noticed that break of journey is not permitted on an e-ticket, again this is buying through the GWR app as I want my Nectar points. Otherwise I'd look for a more reliable app.

Last week I had around 45 minutes at Newport, and with a dire need of caffeine I obviously used this time wisely to go to a coffee shop and get a coffee. If I hadn't rushed out of the house so much, I'd have taken coffee with me but oh well. The barrier didn't like my e-ticket when going out or coming back in.

Later on, on another e-ticket, I had need to go through the barriers at Oxford on the way back from Bicester Village. The latter had no issue reading my e-ticket whatsoever, by the way. So it was another break of journey, and to my surprise the barriers opened just fine. Even more so, I had no issue coming back in either. Same for the break of journey before that actually during the lengthy connection at Didcot Parkway, no issue whatsoever.

Why the GWR e-tickets specify no break of journey I have no idea. Clearly it's not an actual issue, since that hasn't become a new rule nationwide, so I'm confused as to why they seem to think it's not allowed on an e-ticket.

Overall though, I do love the e-ticket option. Much quicker than using a TVM and I can buy tickets in the comfort of the armchair before leaving the house. Which is just brilliant, it must be said. Not so handy if I have to make a journey with the bike, but that's an entirely different matter!
 
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_toommm_

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I too noticed that break of journey is not permitted on an e-ticket, again this is buying through the GWR app as I want my Nectar points. Otherwise I'd look for a more reliable app.

Last week I had around 45 minutes at Newport, and with a dire need of caffeine I obviously used this time wisely to go to a coffee shop and get a coffee. If I hadn't rushed out of the house so much, I'd have taken coffee with me but oh well. The barrier didn't like my e-ticket when going out or coming back in.

Later on, on another e-ticket, I had need to go through the barriers at Oxford on the way back from Bicester Village. The latter had no issue reading my e-ticket whatsoever, by the way. So it was another break of journey, and to my surprise the barriers opened just fine. Even more so, I had no issue coming back in either. Same for the break of journey before that actually during the lengthy connection at Didcot Parkway, no issue whatsoever.

Why the GWR e-tickets specify no break of journey I have no idea. Clearly it's not an actual issue, since that hasn't become a new rule nationwide, so I'm confused as to why they seem to think it's not allowed on an e-ticket.

Overall though, I do love the e-ticket option. Much quicker than using a TVM and I can buy tickets in the comfort of the armchair before leaving the house. Which is just brilliant, it must be said. Not so handy if I have to make a journey with the bike, but that's an entirely different matter!

As I said upthread, it’s a FirstGroup thing. The same thing happens on the Transpennine app.
 

alistairlees

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Why the GWR e-tickets specify no break of journey I have no idea. Clearly it's not an actual issue, since that hasn't become a new rule nationwide, so I'm confused as to why they seem to think it's not allowed on an e-ticket.
This stems from the days (about six years ago) before eTickets, when m-tickets were a trial. As a result of being in a trial, they had different T&Cs. The difference has long since been dropped and the GWR app and eTicket implementation needs to be updated.
 

Techniquest

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This stems from the days (about six years ago) before eTickets, when m-tickets were a trial. As a result of being in a trial, they had different T&Cs. The difference has long since been dropped and the GWR app and eTicket implementation needs to be updated.

Fair enough, maybe at the same time the app will be made much more reliable...
 

Haywain

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What would be nice would be to be able to log into your ticketing account at a TVM and reprint, e.g. if you've been mugged or something. This wouldn't allow for two-factor authentication, but if it was limited functionality where you could just retrieve e-tickets you'd already bought and reprint them that wouldn't really matter.
You can simply save the pdf somewhere in the cloud or email it to yourself so you can access it through another device.
 

HST274

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In terms of which one is more secure against misuse any idea which one is better? For example ticket machines might suck up tickets at termini or a conductor might hole punch it or put a little squiggle on the ticket. What securities do e tickets have against mis use?
 

Haywain

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In terms of which one is more secure against misuse any idea which one is better? For example ticket machines might suck up tickets at termini or a conductor might hole punch it or put a little squiggle on the ticket. What securities do e tickets have against mis use?
The unique barcode provides a lot of security, especially when combined with a suitable level of barcode scanning.
 

_toommm_

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In terms of which one is more secure against misuse any idea which one is better? For example ticket machines might suck up tickets at termini or a conductor might hole punch it or put a little squiggle on the ticket. What securities do e tickets have against mis use?

E-tickets, when scanned, record the scans. This should prevent re-use as any subsequent scans should show that it already has been scanned.

Some TOCs (Avanti IIRC) can also add notes onto a ticket.

Tickets can also me marked as accepted with an excess, indicating they’re being used in a different way than normally possible, and to expect an excess ticket (although excessive e-tickets is another matter).
 

Bletchleyite

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E-tickets, when scanned, record the scans. This should prevent re-use as any subsequent scans should show that it already has been scanned.

Some TOCs (Avanti IIRC) can also add notes onto a ticket.

That of course gives you a lot more to go on if suspecting misuse than a biro squiggle!

Tickets can also me marked as accepted with an excess, indicating they’re being used in a different way than normally possible, and to expect an excess ticket (although excessive e-tickets is another matter).

Which is another gain for the railway over paper tickets, where if you get an excess you could mostly get away with using the original as-was too.
 

david1212

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All discussions on this subject will have those who prefer some form of e-ticket and those that do not. Given this some form of physical ticket. I would like to see a single smartcard accepted across heavy rail, light rail and buses with single use tickets as the last resort primarily for very occasional users.

Core to this is while relatively my phone is inexpensive when at a gateline or on a short hop I want it safely in a fastened pocket or bag not to be trying to keep the right code on the screen ready to present. One reason for this is not being able to see a phone screen with the same glasses as I wear for outdoors / predominantly distance vision. Varifocal lens only allow reading of large clear text. I don't consider my vision, or indeed hearing, losses as significant disabilities as they do not have a major impact on day-to-day life. However if e-tickets became the standard then my vision would be a major barrier to rail travel.

... I can buy tickets in the comfort of the armchair before leaving the house. Which is just brilliant, it must be said. Not so handy if I have to make a journey with the bike, but that's an entirely different matter!

I would much rather spend one minute at a ticket office window than the time required sat in my armchair to log into a website, add the required tickets to the basket, pay, download the e-ticket(s) then transfer them as a PDF or image file to my smartphone.
 

Wallsendmag

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I would much rather spend one minute at a ticket office window than the time required sat in my armchair to log into a website, add the required tickets to the basket, pay, download the e-ticket(s) then transfer them as a PDF or image file to my smartphone.
No need to download them they're emailed to you
 

HBP

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GWR and TPE used to have a silly setup where if you bought an e-ticket on their app you wouldn't be sent an e-mail with the PDF even though it was a barcode e-ticket. There was no need for this inflexibility. I don't entirely get why they did that - does anyone know if they still do?

GWR now also send an email PDF e-ticket and have done for quite a while.
 

johntea

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I would much rather spend one minute at a ticket office window than the time required sat in my armchair to log into a website, add the required tickets to the basket, pay, download the e-ticket(s) then transfer them as a PDF or image file to my smartphone.

I would expect a 'perfect' booking app would allow you to open the app, stick in your journey details (and allow you to save common ones as 'favourites') then simply pay via Apple / Google pay and deliver a copy of your ticket not only to your email address but also the digital 'wallet' on your phone (on Apple at least this can then also even be linked up to my Apple Watch so I literally have the Aztec code on my wrist if desired!) - all could be done in under a minute

Of course things are sadly not perfect in the real world, such as the Northern app insisting I select a specific service for my outward and return journeys when all I want is a simple day return ticket...I now just literally tap the first outward journey and the first return journey times that come up (I suppose you then get into the argument of how to make sure passengers correctly purchase either a anytime day return or off peak day return)
 

py_megapixel

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Personally I use E-tickets most of the time these days as I like buying online before I depart, and ToD is an absolute faff. For journeys where the ticket would be especially expensive to replace I generally like to both print the ticket and have it available on my phone, though for cheaper journeys I'm generally happy just to rely on it being on my phone.

I do still use ToD sometimes - particularly for journeys which are personally very important to me, as a screenshot isn't quite as valuable as the physical ticket as a souvenir!

Shouldn't we also add in smartcards here?

1. Smartcard most favoured.
2. E-ticket
3. Paper is least favoured.
I detest using the ITSO system in its current state because it's too fragmented. I am always slightly anxious that my smartcard will be rejected because it's the wrong TOC, and often I can't use the same smartcard for my bus ticket (which was supposed to be one of the benefits of ITSO) because bus drivers (or indeed the ticket machines) don't like loading tickets onto other companies' cards.

I also don't see the advantage of it over the other ticketing methods. Until TOCs start properly supporting pay-as-you-go - the functionality already exists in the ITSO specification, as I found out the hard way when a bus driver managed to accidentally charge the cost of a paper ticket to my ITSO card rather than loading a cash paid ticket onto my ITSO card; it's just not really used - it's essentially duplicating what an E-ticket does.

No need to download them they're emailed to you
They still have to be downloaded from the mail server, and mobile email clients don't tend to download attachments automatically.
 

WelshBluebird

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I would expect a 'perfect' booking app would allow you to open the app, stick in your journey details (and allow you to save common ones as 'favourites') then simply pay via Apple / Google pay and deliver a copy of your ticket not only to your email address but also the digital 'wallet' on your phone (on Apple at least this can then also even be linked up to my Apple Watch so I literally have the Aztec code on my wrist if desired!) - all could be done in under a minute
I booked an e-ticket with LNER last week (instead of GWR which is who I usually use) and was pleasantly surprised that on the confirmation screen there was a link to download the tickets to the Google Pay app right there. Could be a little more seamless (it sent an email to you that had a link on it to click to download the tickets to Google Pay) but still pretty good!
 

Nicholas43

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Although still advertise it on the website as needing the app on the website ...
I attempted to get Mark Hopwood's office to stop that nonsense, but just got a boilerplate response that GWR prefer people to use their (unreliable, according to Google Play reviews) app, and fear that e-tickets can be used fraudulently.
 

Kite159

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I attempted to get Mark Hopwood's office to stop that nonsense, but just got a boilerplate response that GWR prefer people to use their (unreliable, according to Google Play reviews) app, and fear that e-tickets can be used fraudulently.

Although it isn't just GWR but SWR were the same. Not sure if a similar message pops up for TPE.
 

_toommm_

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Although it isn't just GWR but SWR were the same. Not sure if a similar message pops up for TPE.

Yep.

(The photo below is a screenshot from the Transpennine website, highlighting the issue that FirstGroup state e-tickets must be shown in the app.)


3E59D789-ADC1-4ACA-B107-A2B7E2015D00.png
 

westv

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I commute in advance tickets, so to save lots of faffing with paper and collection references...
Same for me (although not since March 20).
And e-tickets are so easy when it comes to delay repay.
 

YorksLad12

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What I'm taking away from this discussion is not the preference either way but that things are even more confused that I thought. You can go to a machine and buy or collect a card ticket; you can use an app for an m-ticket; you can order via a website or app and get an e-ticket sent by email... which becomes a physical ticket if you print it out.

But they're still separate systems, not integrated so that passengers have a choice of ticket format - they get a choice of ticket purchasing options which ties them to a format. (Incidentally, I use the TPE app for my occasional journeys to Huddersfield, but like @david1212 I have my distance glasses on when in the station, not my readers. Awkward. Card tickets for London.)

Not everyone has a smartphone (Shock! Horror!); not everyone has a printer at home (I don't at the moment, the last one broke and I'm saving for a replacement). Ticket machines? Great... if you aren't illiterate or have a visual impairment that means you need to speak to someone to issue a physical ticket for you. Which is why ticket offices shouldn't undergo wholesale closures, and 'floorwalkers' need to be conspicuous and willing to take people through the process, connected to one app (and one backoffice) to rule them all.

Ironically, TfN has had to make redundant the people looking at integrated ticketing to make savings! When what we need to do is look at the whole process and how it works.

Bit of a ramble, sorry.
 

Haywain

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an e-ticket sent by email... which becomes a physical ticket if you print it out.
No - an eTicket is still an eTicket even if it is printed. It does not become something else.
Not everyone has a smartphone (Shock! Horror!); not everyone has a printer at home (I don't at the moment, the last one broke and I'm saving for a replacement). Ticket machines? Great... if you aren't illiterate or have a visual impairment that means you need to speak to someone to issue a physical ticket for you. Which is why ticket offices shouldn't undergo wholesale closures, and 'floorwalkers' need to be conspicuous and willing to take people through the process, connected to one app (and one backoffice) to rule them all.
Excuses, excuses. This happens every time there is a discussion around eTickets. There are a range of ways to buy tickets and a range of ways to fufil tickets. I am sure that at the same time there have always been a few people who have had problems with the way the railways do things. However, ticket offices have seen massive reductions in use over recent years and that is only likely to continue. Meanwhile technology actually allows increasing numbers of people to use other means of ticket purchase. We cannot stand still using technology that is many, many years out of date.
 

Bletchleyite

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Excuses, excuses. This happens every time there is a discussion around eTickets. There are a range of ways to buy tickets and a range of ways to fufil tickets. I am sure that at the same time there have always been a few people who have had problems with the way the railways do things. However, ticket offices have seen massive reductions in use over recent years and that is only likely to continue. Meanwhile technology actually allows increasing numbers of people to use other means of ticket purchase. We cannot stand still using technology that is many, many years out of date.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - we are reaching, if we haven't already reached, the point when it will be cheaper to provide basic mobile devices (I'd envisage small tablets, say 6") with basic Internet access for free to those who can't afford to purchase one, plus free training at e.g. public libraries in their use, for provision of all Government services, not just railways, than to continue providing old-fashioned means of accessing those services.

For people who can't use TVMs, mobile device screens etc because of a disability, it might well prove cheaper to provide fully free travel, with a simple telephone service to make reservations by voice where these are needed.

For "refuseniks", I'd put it down to what can be provided commercially. That is, perhaps it is viable to provide staffed sales facilities at some locations and/or phone telesales for an additional fee, as the Dutch did, or perhaps it could be left to travel agents to provide this commercially if they felt money was to be made from it. "Refuseniks" are not deserving of public money spending on them to pander to their views.
 

HST274

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It will be frankly impossible for a long time for us to fully transition to e tickets. Some people don't have phones that support apps or any phone,(e.g younger kids) some don't have bank accounts, some don't have printers to provide backup for bad battery phones, some don't know how, some people can survive without carrying phones everywhere, some people etc. Etc. Are all these people not allowed to travel by rail? Of course they are allowed (and I'm afraid free travel is an unrealistic dream with the current state of the railway). So for a long long time some physical tickets, whether credit cards or 'smart', will exist and I think they should exist. Finally I have spent time buying tickets online and on a tvm and it is a lot quicker to type on a machine then spend time clicking through credit cards and typing in destinations.

Anyway sorry for the rant.
 

HST274

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Clearly you've never used a Northern TVM then :D
No I've not :D :D

But one thing I think is also not very good is tvm that only accept credit cards, meaning those who don't own cards (children for example) will struggle to pay. But that is a small demographic and pre covid a conductor would always be ready to help too.
 

infobleep

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That's a failure of the operators in question, not a limitation of the medium.

Smart cards are a poor relation to e-tickets
Definitely a failure of the operator but not much I can do about it, save complain if I can be bothered
 

Bletchleyite

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Clearly you've never used a Northern TVM then :D

Interestingly the Chiltern version of that TVM allows you to choose a fare without a journey plan and so isn't half as nasty.

But that aside, you could imagine TVMs issuing e-tickets. Or even the station newsagent doing it!

As for kids and cards, there are lots of non-cash options for kids now, such as GoHenry. If I had kids (I don't) I'd rather they carried that sort of thing than cash.
 
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