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Paralympian forced to wet herself on train without accessible toilet

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Steve Harris

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This incident has just been covered on my local TV news:- BBC Look East

They reported that she couldn't hold it to Peterbrough. Therefore the incident must have happened between Leicester and Peterborough.

Back when I was young, this route was run with a class 31/4 and 4 mk2's. Although none of the toilets were disabled there was at least 7 toilets on the train!!

Unfortunately toilet provisions everywhere (trains, towns, cities) are being eroded. Mainly do to cost.
 
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yorksrob

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I can't remember anyone ever soiling themselves in those circumstances on a train in five years on the railway. I can certainly imagine it's never happened on XC since they took the franchise.

There was a thread about toilet provision on TPE's anglo-Scottish services last year. Someone on the service mentioned that a gentleman had wet himself due to oou toilets and lack of a toilet break.
 

SpacePhoenix

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They reported that she couldn't hold it to Peterbrough. Therefore the incident must of happened between Leicester and Peterborough.train!!

Does every station between Leicester and Peterborough have toilets?

Back when I was young, this route was run with a class 31/4 and 4 mk2's. Although none of the toilets were disabled there was at least 7 toilets on the train!!

It was mentioned on another thread that Mk1s, Mk2s and Mk3s all had a toilet at each end of every coach
 

O L Leigh

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Back when I was young, this route was run with a class 31/4 and 4 mk2's. Although none of the toilets were disabled there was at least 7 toilets on the train!!

...but more than when there were Cl156s.

Clearly there's no question that this lady could have been got off the train. I'm disinclined to try to discredit her testimony, but I do wonder about the accuracy with which it has been recounted and/or reported. There are many reasons why she "couldn't have been taken off the train", chief of which is that there's no point doing so at any station that does not have toilet facilities. The problem is that the story has been presented in a certain way and it's impossible to infer facts from the account given. For example, she says she would have been prepared to use the regular toilet, but did she communicate this to the guard? It seems that most of her communication was with the customer services desk via Twitter. The problem is that there's no way to know.

O L Leigh
 

yorksrob

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No they didn't.

Mk 2's and 3's do (in their original form).

The 2's on the Cumbrian Coast have had some closed off permanently recently (as not all have Been replaced with CET's. The Mk 1's mostly had two toilets for a whole carriage (albeit not always at opposite ends).
 

Steve Harris

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No they didn't.

As already stated, in there original format (when built) they all had 2 toilets. The mk2's having 2 at the same end, the mk2d & e being 1 at each end (so 2 in total) IIRC.
I'll have to dig out my coaching stock recognition book to be 100% sure as I think a mk2 BSO only had 1.


And yes O L Leigh. That is more than a class 156.

The point I was trying to make is, if you only start off with 1 toilet on a train and it goes out of use, there are then no 'on train' alternatives, where as if you start off with 3 or 4, if one goes OOU then it's no major hardship unless of course the 1 which does go OOU is the 1 and only disabled toilet on the train!

Of course, however, extra toilet provision takes out valuable space where seats can be!
 
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Antman

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but did she communicate this to the guard? It seems that most of her communication was with the customer services desk via Twitter.

Even if the communication was with the Twitter team, surely they should have had the common sense to contact the guard on the train who could then have spoken to the lady.
 

Busaholic

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Anecdotally it seems to me that XC are less good at maintaining onboard cleanliness and toilet functionality than a majority of other TOCs. ScotRail operate pretty much exactly the same trains and almost always manage to keep their accessible toilet stocked with tissue and soap, mopped in turnarounds and tanked and emptied regularly. It's not difficult. Get it right.

Anecdotally, my wife has travelled on Cross Country on three return trips from Penzance to Morpeth, basically annually, the last taking place in the autumn of 2014. The return half of two of the journeys were nightmares in the true sense of the word because of storm and rain damage, but all three of these return journeys were made unnerving or, in the last case, unbearable because of malfunctioning lavatories. In this last case, on boarding the train at Morpeth (the train having only travelled the relatively short distance from Edinburgh) an announcement was made to passengers that there was only one functioning loo, being in carriage x. Needless to say, long before the train reached Birmingham New Street that facility had been overwhelmed and passengers were instructed to detrain at Brum to use the loos there, which my wife did. She then got back on the train knowing there was little likelihood of another opportunity before reaching Penzance many hours later, which was indeed the case. Being in her 60s and not in the best of health, it induced great stress. All this for a £200 return ticket, before railcard discount.
 

yorkie

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I read it that the reason she wasn't de-trained at the intermediate station might have been because, in the absence of any station staff (hence the lack of ramp assistance), the station might have been closed, and the toilets locked, so therefore even if she had been taken off the train it wouldn't have helped her situation.
Agreed, the stations between Leicester & Peterborough appear to (mostly) fall into this category, and the gap between suitable stations after Peterborough seems to small to me, assuming staff absence and an unplanned closure wasn't an issue.

Without knowing the station involved, it is difficult to comment.
... I have a feeling (obviously not confirmed) the ubiquitous "member of train crew" was the trolley person who then hasn't bothered to tell the guard.
I concur, some aspects would make a lot more sense if that was the case.
Or, as I posted above, if the station was unstaffed then the toilets might have been locked anyway, so there would have been no point taking the lady to them. If she commenced her journey at 17:22 then it would be getting quite late by the time this situation arose, and it is quite likely that the station had locked the toilets for the night. They do that at my local station, even though services are still running.
True; does anyone know if an XC Guard could have opened any of the toilets at any of the smaller intermediate stations that are unstaffed from late afternoon?
I have a feeling (obviously not confirmed) the ubiquitous "member of train crew" was the trolley person who then hasn't bothered to tell the guard.
That's what I was thinking, but it doesn't square with the quote from the article:
This would have delayed her journey home but in the event there were no staff at the station to help her so she was unable to get off the train.
Unless they made up porkie pies after the event?
My guess would be a misunderstanding; "no staff at the station to unlock the toilets" would have made more sense.
People whose disability requires frequent access to toilet facilities are...
Train companies can provide trains, for which passengers may be using for long journeys, without any toilets. See: Southern Class 313 & toilets; while many people may find this inconvenient, it is not a breach of any legislation.

Passengers do have the ability to alight from such trains at frequent intervals (which, arguably, is a similar situation to the tube, buses, etc).

Presumably the train companies would not be allowed to plan for trains to have no facilities on services with a very long journey time between stations.
 

trainophile

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Anecdotally, my wife has travelled on Cross Country on three return trips from Penzance to Morpeth, basically annually, the last taking place in the autumn of 2014. The return half of two of the journeys were nightmares in the true sense of the word because of storm and rain damage, but all three of these return journeys were made unnerving or, in the last case, unbearable because of malfunctioning lavatories. In this last case, on boarding the train at Morpeth (the train having only travelled the relatively short distance from Edinburgh) an announcement was made to passengers that there was only one functioning loo, being in carriage x. Needless to say, long before the train reached Birmingham New Street that facility had been overwhelmed and passengers were instructed to detrain at Brum to use the loos there, which my wife did. She then got back on the train knowing there was little likelihood of another opportunity before reaching Penzance many hours later, which was indeed the case. Being in her 60s and not in the best of health, it induced great stress. All this for a £200 return ticket, before railcard discount.

That's five and a half hours. How ridiculous to expect people to wait so long, and presumably they wouldn't dare have a drink of water either. Couldn't they have stopped again at Plymouth?
 

TheDavibob

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Nope. None of them do according to National Rail.

O L Leigh

Pretty sure there are loos at Stamford, but they're not the sort I would guarantee being open throughout the day. And by that point you'll nearly be at Peterborough, where there's a least a chance of not waiting an hour for the next train (though it involves an inordinate amount of changes).
 

O L Leigh

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True; does anyone know if an XC Guard could have opened any of the toilets at any of the smaller intermediate stations that are unstaffed from late afternoon?

There are none.

As far as I am aware, Nuneaton, Leicester, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge and Stansted Airport are the only stations en route that have toilet facilities, and all but March are staffed stations with despatch staff at least. Of those, March has restricted hours and the toilets are all on the Peterborough-bound platform. Anyone in a wheelchair would need to cross the line using the station level crossing, which would require all the signals to be put back to danger so that the barriers could be raised.

Besides, most disabled toilets are secured with a RADAR key which are not issued to rail staff as a matter of course. However, anyone who might be expected to use such facilities, i.e. a disabled person, is likely to have one. It's a national scheme that does not only appear on the railways.

O L Leigh
 
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graham11

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Somebody has mentioned the Radar key being required for some toilets.

Although these keys are often given to people with problems they can also be bought of either Amazon or E Bay for a couple of pounds
Makes life easier .

Graham
 

jamesontheroad

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For example, she says she would have been prepared to use the regular toilet, but did she communicate this to the guard? It seems that most of her communication was with the customer services desk via Twitter. The problem is that there's no way to know

Even if the communication was with the Twitter team, surely they should have had the common sense to contact the guard on the train who could then have spoken to the lady.

As mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, this train would likely have left Leicester with standing room only (if it was a weekday, as I understand it). XC guards frequently choose not to leave the rear cab whenever these trains are overcrowded, so she could easily have had no contact with the guard for some or all of this journey until PBO.
 

cjmillsnun

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To me the most disturbing part of this story is that - assuming the report is accurate - a disabled person got over-carried because the train crew were either unable or unwilling to help her alight when she wanted to.

If it was 'unable' then I have to ask do they have the equipment and training needed? And if not, why not? What would have happened in a genuine emergency (of the 'fire, death, kill' variety), would they have been able to evacuate her?

If they were 'unwilling' then I have to question if it's due to their personal choice or is there a problem with the culture within XC?

The fact that the toilet was out of order is secondary to this, in my opinion. It doesn't really matter why she wanted to leave the train.

This is also my view.
 

SpacePhoenix

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How many locations do XC have available to them that they can get their CET tanks emptied?
 

eastdyke

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Some of the questions asked in this thread seem to be answered in this latest piece on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-38495184

In particular:

"I waited for the ticket master to come and she was very sympathetic and said she would get me off at the next stop so I could use the toilet there and then they would put me back on.

"But at that particular station there was nobody on the platform to help me. The next possible platform was Peterborough.

"Between me asking for help and getting to Peterborough I just had to do it ....

There are also some quotes from XCs MD concerning cow damaged trains and therefore the need to use the unit with a (toilet) door defect that was 'due to be fixed'.

IMO it is inevitable that incidents like this will always occur. It is the frequency of occurrence and how those occurrences are handled that define the Railway. Quite frankly in this case not in as good a light as would be ideal.
 
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Antman

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As mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, this train would likely have left Leicester with standing room only (if it was a weekday, as I understand it). XC guards frequently choose not to leave the rear cab whenever these trains are overcrowded, so she could easily have had no contact with the guard for some or all of this journey until PBO.

The guard may normally stay in the rear cab, but surely if they were made aware of a customer needing assistance by the Twitter team they would not do so and actually go and speak to the customer.
 

urbophile

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I said, I bet she would have taken the opportunity to leave the train and continue on the next.

She says that's exactly what she was offered. You're calling her a liar.

The article clearly states:
'A member of the train crew suggested she could get off the train when it stopped at a station, use the disabled toilet there and wait for the next train. This would have delayed her journey home but in the event there were no staff at the station to help her so she was unable to get off the train.'

In other words, she might have been 'offered' the opportunity in theory, but in practice couldn't take advantage of it.
 

Bletchleyite

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The BBC article says that she was not informed that the disabled toilet was out of use before boarding. This sounds like something that really should have happened. As I've said, missing facilities should be on the PIS, whatever they are. Only GWR HST services seem quite good at doing this. Then she may have elected not to use that train at all.
 

Howardh

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As mentioned in my earlier post on this thread, this train would likely have left Leicester with standing room only (if it was a weekday, as I understand it). XC guards frequently choose not to leave the rear cab whenever these trains are overcrowded, so she could easily have had no contact with the guard for some or all of this journey until PBO.

If you need the guard (a) in an emergency or (b) for information, if they are in their cab and not going to walk around the carriage, how do you get hold of them? Emergency cord? If the guard won't move down the train as it's packed, then we can hardly expect the passenger to get to the guard.
 

eastdyke

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If you need the guard (a) in an emergency or (b) for information, if they are in their cab and not going to walk around the carriage, how do you get hold of them? Emergency cord? If the guard won't move down the train as it's packed, then we can hardly expect the passenger to get to the guard.

In this case from the quotes here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2831135&postcount=109 you will see that the guard aka 'ticket master' was involved, no twitter, no cord.
 

SpacePhoenix

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If you need the guard (a) in an emergency or (b) for information, if they are in their cab and not going to walk around the carriage, how do you get hold of them? Emergency cord? If the guard won't move down the train as it's packed, then we can hardly expect the passenger to get to the guard.

Would the train have been 2 units coupled together or just a single unit?
 
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Possibly, and (assuming it was a weekday?) given it was rush hour and this service is usually standing room only from Leicester.

However the third party contractors who provide the catering service on this service have to leave the train themselves to get one of the ramps stored on the platforms at Peterborough when they leave the train.

(This can be quite frantic, as they occasionally arrive in PBO at the wrong end of the train, and have to leave a stocked trolley and locked cash drawer to scarper up to the platform stairs to retrieve the ramp.)

Never catering on that train, used to catch it myself when I lived in Oakham. First one to leave Birmingham without it in the evenings.

Once she's left Leicester there are no toilets at any stations, melton, Oakham or Stamford, to peterborough. By the sounds of it the train would have had a delay at Peteborough (where the disabled toilets are plentiful on most platforms) but if they weren't going to get that far then as far as I can see the guard then had three options:

1. Open the disabled loo and allow it to be used even if it was knackered (probably what should have happened).

2. Use ramp to move passenger to the coach with the cupboard style toilet.

3. De train the passenger at an intermediate stop using the on-board ramp. Local knowledge would then be to direct the passenger to a nearby facility (eg several pubs near Oakham station). This would however probably have incurred as much bad PR as the story has anyway.
 

eastdyke

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Never catering on that train, used to catch it myself when I lived in Oakham. First one to leave Birmingham without it in the evenings.

Once she's left Leicester there are no toilets at any stations, melton, Oakham or Stamford, to peterborough. By the sounds of it the train would have had a delay at Peteborough (where the disabled toilets are plentiful on most platforms) but if they weren't going to get that far then as far as I can see the guard then had three options:

1. Open the disabled loo and allow it to be used even if it was knackered (probably what should have happened).

2. Use ramp to move passenger to the coach with the cupboard style toilet.

3. De train the passenger at an intermediate stop using the on-board ramp. Local knowledge would then be to direct the passenger to a nearby facility (eg several pubs near Oakham station). This would however probably have incurred as much bad PR as the story has anyway.

I agree with you, sadly there was a fourth way - to carry on regardless?

The three stations that you mention are all managed by EMT (who run only a token service) and seem to have 'modest' ney few facilities. Is there a disconnect here? I know that XC manage no stations, perhaps this should be looked at with respect to this route and future Franchises (but perhaps also on another thread).
 
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