Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

ainsworth74

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Isn't that the fundamental problem though? much of the country think it's unacceptable to pitch a tent on a pavement (or indeed on the road), but have no problem with parking a car on a pavement.

A full tent is more likely to completely block a pavement. A well regulated pavement parking scheme however would presumably not cause pavements to be blocked fully as that would defeat the purpose of the scheme.
 
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Domh245

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I assume you'd be fine with me setting up a tent on the pavement in front of your house then?

I wouldn't be fine with that, because (other than the privacy concerns) the pavement is less than 2m wide, and even thins down to 1.1m at the property boundary because of a tree at the road-edge of the pavement*. Needless to say that pavement parking down my street shouldn't (/wouldn't) be allowed, with the pavements being left clear for accessibility, the fact that many cars overhang the driveways onto the pavement already leaving the pavement space at a premium. The counterpoint however is that with the road being ~4m wide it is a really delicate balancing act between pavement space and being able to even drive down the road at all, the common approach seeming to be parking half/half (or 70/30) to leave some pavement clear whilst leaving the road itself accessible.

If it were for example outside my grandparents house where the pavement in front of the house is 5m then whilst I would still be pretty worried about the privacy concerns, I'm quite content for things to be put outside on the pavement whilst still retaining a minimum width for pedestrians.

*of which, a fair chunk is disrupted by poor tarmac as a result of roots, it is preferable to (and people do) go onto the road!
 

py_megapixel

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If it were for example outside my grandparents house where the pavement in front of the house is 5m then whilst I would still be pretty worried about the privacy concerns, I'm quite content for things to be put outside on the pavement whilst still retaining a minimum width for pedestrians.
And I assume, in cases where the road is wider than required for a vehicle to pass, you'd be happy with things being placed on the road while still leaving space for vehicles?
 

Domh245

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And I assume, in cases where the road is wider than required for a vehicle to pass, you'd be happy with things being placed on the road while still leaving space for vehicles?

I'd rather keep the road clear on the basis of a ~2m wide, 1.5ton metal box travelling north of 10mph is going to need more space than a pedestrian, who occupy a considerably smaller area and are at most hitting 10mph when jogging, and on average walking at half that speed.
 

py_megapixel

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I'd rather keep the road clear on the basis of a ~2m wide, 1.5ton metal box travelling north of 10mph is going to need more space than a pedestrian, who occupy a considerably smaller area and are at most hitting 10mph when jogging, and on average walking at half that speed.
Even so, many roads have far more space than is needed, especially when you factor in huge hatched-off areas in the centre. And this isn't just a car vs pedestrian thing; even if it was for the benefit of an efficient and environmentally friendly activity I would much prefer as little greenspace as possible be turned into asphalt.
 

Bletchleyite

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Isn't that the fundamental problem though? much of the country think it's unacceptable to pitch a tent on a pavement (or indeed on the road), but have no problem with parking a car on a pavement.

I don't think the issue would be with the tent or the car, but rather with the idea of sleeping in either of them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sleeping in cars is not illegal, you'll get some funny looks tho.
Same for tents.

Indeed, it's not (unless a Byelaw exists as it does on some Council car parks, particularly in locations that might otherwise be popular with camper vans), but I think that (rather than the existence of either) is what people would object to in principle going on in their street.
 

Trackman

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Indeed, it's not (unless a Byelaw exists as it does on some Council car parks, particularly in locations that might otherwise be popular with camper vans), but I think that (rather than the existence of either) is what people would object to in principle going on in their street.
Colwyn Bay is one, you cannot park a camper van anywhere in a certain radius between 11pm and 8am. Think the locals got fed up with them.
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My dad lives in sheltered accommodation and has problems with students double parking on the pavement. This means bin lorries and ambulances cannot get through to the cul-de-sac as the road leading to it is very narrow.
After a lot moaning and an article in the local rag, the Police now tow them away (they ring up with a reference number).
However a correctly parked car causes just as much mayhem so they campaigned for double yellows, but the council said it would cost thousands in admin costs to do it for such a small stretch of road.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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One possibility is 'shared space' (the rules are: there are no rules)
I visited a shared space town. On the way from the station into town there were tactile strips left and right for visually handicapped people. Both were blocked by parked vehicles
 

Bletchleyite

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One possibility is 'shared space' (the rules are: there are no rules)
I visited a shared space town. On the way from the station into town there were tactile strips left and right for visually handicapped people. Both were blocked by parked vehicles

The problem with "shared space" is as you say - it's absolutely terrible for those with disabilities, in particular with any sort of eyesight problem.
 

Ianno87

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The problem with "shared space" is as you say - it's absolutely terrible for those with disabilities, in particular with any sort of eyesight problem.

Only if drivers don't drive appropriately and cautiously.
 

Ianno87

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No, even if they do it's still terrifying if you can't see.

But what makes you think they would? They don't anywhere else.

This is why we need to change the "car is King" mentality through greater use of shared spaces, Dutch roundabouts etc.

If not, the problem will only get worse.
 

Baxenden Bank

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One possibility is 'shared space' (the rules are: there are no rules)
I visited a shared space town. On the way from the station into town there were tactile strips left and right for visually handicapped people. Both were blocked by parked vehicles
The problem with "shared space" is as you say - it's absolutely terrible for those with disabilities, in particular with any sort of eyesight problem.
Only if drivers don't drive appropriately and cautiously.
Shared space simply gives all of the highway to motorists, rather than just the carriageway. Try walking in a 'shared space' road and see how motorists behave towards you! In a few specific locations it may well work. I remember the centre of Oxford, pre-pedestrianisation and without shared space, the sheer volume of pedestrians forced vehicles to a crawl. That is the only time I have known it happen. Obviously there are courteous and considerate drivers who are capable of sharing but it's rather difficult to tell in advance which they are amongst all the other traffic.
 

Ianno87

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Shared space simply gives all of the highway to motorists, rather than just the carriageway. Try walking in a 'shared space' road and see how motorists behave towards you!

Wrong. It gives all of the road to everybody.

Trinity Street / Sidney Street in Cambridge is shared space and drivers certainly know to be patient and give pedestrians priority.

It's not the problem of the road design, it's the problem of a few entitled motorists.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Wrong. It gives all of the road to everybody.

Trinity Street / Sidney Street in Cambridge is shared space and drivers certainly know to be patient and give pedestrians priority.

It's not the problem of the road design, it's the problem of a few entitled motorists.
I was referring to practical reality, not the law!

The law does not allow priority to be given to any road user - ever. You can ban certain categories of road user eg vehicles over a certain weight. You can only ban pedestrians (and cyclists and horse-riders) under The Special Roads Act 1930 which is used for motorways and sections of other roads such as the A55 tunnels through Conwy etc.
 

Ianno87

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I was referring to practical reality, not the law!

The law does not allow priority to be given to any road user - ever. You can ban certain categories of road user eg vehicles over a certain weight. You can only ban pedestrians (and cyclists and horse-riders) under The Special Roads Act 1930 which is used for motorways and sections of other roads such as the A55 tunnels through Conwy etc.

So shared spaces actually re-inforce the wording of the law.
 

Bletchleyite

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I was referring to practical reality, not the law!

The law does not allow priority to be given to any road user - ever. You can ban certain categories of road user eg vehicles over a certain weight. You can only ban pedestrians (and cyclists and horse-riders) under The Special Roads Act 1930 which is used for motorways and sections of other roads such as the A55 tunnels through Conwy etc.

The law can of course be changed. I've never quite understood why people in here often feel it is immutable.
 

Baxenden Bank

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So shared spaces actually re-inforce the wording of the law.
Yes, but try getting that through to motorists - outside of VERY specific areas eg my Oxford and your Cambridge example.

Legally, I can walk along any section of any road (Special Roads Act designations excluded). So long as I am 'passing and re-passing'. That is how demonstrations work - just step into the road (en-masse) and walk slowly, until you deliberately stop you are not causing an obstruction. In practice, I suggest I will be requiring an ambulance quite soon and very few police officers, if called, will be sufficiently well versed in highway legislation, as it pertains to pedestrians.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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I called at the police station in the shared space town, a senior officer told me that there had been fewer injury 'accidents' since shared space was introduced. Might not be statistically significant
Asked a local too, who thought ss was rubbish
On the way back to the station I wanted to sit on a bench for a rest. Unfortunately it was not protected by a kerb or anything else, so I had to find somewhere else

I guess there are good reasons why ss is not used much
..
As for parking, when visiting a strange town I park for free in the suburbs and enjoy walking to the centre
 

The Ham

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Shared surfaces can work well, generally they work where there's low traffic flows (sub 100 vehicle movements, 2 directions, in the buisest hour).
 

Bikeman78

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Having done a lot of walking from home recently, it has struck me that parking on the pavement is now the norm, even when it doesn't help people on the road. For example, my street only has houses along one side for most of it. Most people park on the pavement leaving around a half metre gap, sometimes less. The remaining space on the road doesn't quite leave room for two vehicles to pass. If they parked completely on the road, there would still be space for single file traffic. So what's the point? On bin day, the gap on the pavement is filled with bins and bags. So I end up walking on the road.

Recently there has been an incident in a house next to a six lane road. The Police have been there for two weeks. Typically there are two or three vehicles, all parked on the pavement, leaving a gap too small for a wheelchair or a buggy. Anyone driving in lane one still has to move to lane two to pass the parked vehicles so why not park on the road? I'll be asking South Wales Police the same question.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Having done a lot of walking from home recently, it has struck me that parking on the pavement is now the norm, even when it doesn't help people on the road. For example, my street only has houses along one side for most of it. Most people park on the pavement leaving around a half metre gap, sometimes less. The remaining space on the road doesn't quite leave room for two vehicles to pass. If they parked completely on the road, there would still be space for single file traffic. So what's the point? On bin day, the gap on the pavement is filled with bins and bags. So I end up walking on the road.

Recently there has been an incident in a house next to a six lane road. The Police have been there for two weeks. Typically there are two or three vehicles, all parked on the pavement, leaving a gap too small for a wheelchair or a buggy. Anyone driving in lane one still has to move to lane two to pass the parked vehicles so why not park on the road? I'll be asking South Wales Police the same question.
The half on the pavement point is spot on.

Unless you are creating enough space for two vehicles to easily pass on the remaining road space it is entirely pointless, merely damaging the footway and causing inconvenience to those with a legitimate use for the footway.

On my trip to Tesco tomorrow I will encounter the following - council workmen substantially cutting back trees and creating an off road track - their vehicles parked completely blocking the footway giving me the choice of the churned up grass verge or the road. Coming back a different way there will be an artic parked one foot onto the footway - enough space to walk past but why? Perhaps it creates just a little bit of extra visibility for vehicles to see if it is safe to pass.

As to the police, yes they do seem to have the same bad habits as their fellow motorists. Responding to an emergency, fair enough, but on routine calls there is no excuse for setting such a bad example.
 

spinba11

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As a wheelchair user the most disrespectful thing anyone can do is park on the pavement, I don’t care what the reason is.
 

Bletchleyite

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Unless you are creating enough space for two vehicles to easily pass on the remaining road space it is entirely pointless, merely damaging the footway and causing inconvenience to those with a legitimate use for the footway.

The main case for it is in narrow terraced streets where you can't have *one* car pass if you don't do it. Those are the sort of places where bays are likely to be marked out, though.

There is indeed literally no point whatsoever in doing it on any full-width single carriageway, because whether you park part on the pavement or not only one car can pass it at any given time.
 

py_megapixel

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The main case for it is in narrow terraced streets where you can't have *one* car pass if you don't do it. Those are the sort of places where bays are likely to be marked out, though.

There is indeed literally no point whatsoever in doing it on any full-width single carriageway, because whether you park part on the pavement or not only one car can pass it at any given time.
Some roads near where I live are wide A-roads where it's easily possible for two small-ish cars to pass each other without even straying into the oncoming lane. And yet people still block the pavement... :rolleyes:
 

Bikeman78

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Some roads near where I live are wide A-roads where it's easily possible for two small-ish cars to pass each other without even straying into the oncoming lane. And yet people still block the pavement... :rolleyes:
That was my point a few posts up. Parking on the pavement has become engrained as the norm, even when it achieves nothing. People are shameless about it too, happily mounting the pavement right next to where I'm walking.
 

sheff1

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The half on the pavement point is spot on.

Unless you are creating enough space for two vehicles to easily pass on the remaining road space it is entirely pointless, merely damaging the footway and causing inconvenience to those with a legitimate use for the footway.
Standard procedure on my road is that on one side you park on the road, on the other side half on the road/half on the pavement. There is no question of two vehicles passing in the remaining space, if someone is coming in the opposite direction you must wait until they have come through. If the (unofficial) parking protocol was not followed, and both sides saw parking on the road, only smaller cars would be able to travel along the road at all - delivery vehicles, emergency vehicles, refuse lorries etc would just not be able to get through.
 

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