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Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

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mmh

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If people have chosen to live somewhere where they can only park anti socially then I don’t think there is a duty for society to pay for that choice. Move out and let someone more willing to use public transport to live there.
In Gibraltar they built little multi stories for residents in dense areas to park. Do that and charge for permits.

It's hard to see something as anti-social when everyone else is doing it. Charge for permits? Why, what would the benefit of that be?

Multi-storey parking garages? Where's the land for those coming from, and how do you put one in a conservation area?
 
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Meerkat

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Everyone isn’t parking on the pavement.
If it’s a conservation area maybe we need to tidy it up by getting rid of the cars on the street....
 

C J Snarzell

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I have seen quite a few housing developments go up near where I live in recent years and the problem with pavement parking is this - greedy property developers should be made accountable for some of this problem!

My friend and his wife live on a new housing estate and they have a modest three bedroom house. There is a small driveway just big enough for their two cars. Unfortunately, any visitors (like myself!) have to park on the street and I have to deliberately park partly on the pavement so there is easy access through the estate because the road isn't wide enough.

They actually have two very young children and I shuddered to think what will happen in years to come when both children are old enough to drive and there will be four cars in the household. That's not taking into account other young families who have children yet to grow up.

I've seen many new housing estates like this brought to a stand still at times because of parking issues on the road. Property developers are squeezing too many properties on acres of land and not considering things like parking for buyers which is causing quite a few headaches in local communities.

CJ
 

mmh

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Everyone isn’t parking on the pavement.
If it’s a conservation area maybe we need to tidy it up by getting rid of the cars on the street....

They are five houses over > there because if they didn't they'd block the road.

Still, people aren't coming out with any practical solutions to a problem which, I suspect, doesn't really exist in many areas other than as an excuse for the anti-car lobby. If the cars weren't on the pavement would they be happy? Probably not.
 

Baxenden Bank

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The Fiesta is a really good example of a car that's ballooned in recent decades. My 2001 Fiesta felt tiny compared to current models. (Yet according to some they're still a "supermini" car!)
Here's how its size (length x width) has grown over the years:
Mk I (1976): 3.57m x 1.57m
Mk II (1983): 3.57m x 1.57m
Mk III (1989): 3.74m x 1.60m
Mk IV (1995): 3.82m x 1.63m
Mk V (2002): 3.92m x 1.69m
Mk VI (2009): 3.97m x 1.72m
Mk VII (2017): 4.04m x 1.73m
(all numbers lifted from Wikipedia)

In old money, that's 8 1/2" longer and 4" wider than the model two decades ago, or 18" longer and 6" wider than they were in the mid 1980s. No wonder they don't fit in some garages!
And a standard parking space, used in many planning / highway department was, remains, and possibly always will be 1.8m x 4.2m (edit: I can't quite remember the numbers off-hand). Hence the 'garage too small problem' and the 'supermarket car park space too small' problem.

In my area, the council relaxed its planning standard (generally two spaces per dwelling, more for larger dwellings, less for flats). The developers are more than happy to use that space to squash in more houses (= more profit). The buyers don't think about it, just as they don't think about where the nearest school is for the kids they have a couple of years later. Result - brand new housing estates with pavements full of cars.

These things go in phases. My estate was built to the 'two spaces per dwelling rule'. Young families bought the houses and it worked generally fine until all the kids became teenagers, bought cars, now four cars per dwelling with at least two on the pavement. Moving on a few years and the young adults have moved out and there is rarely a car on the pavement. Elsewhere, houses were built with rear parking courts with allocated spaces, which no-one uses as they prefer to bump it half on the pavement directly in front of their house- on the inside of a bend.

Technically, parking on the highway is always 'illegal' (or unlawful or whatever).
Obstructing the highway is always 'illegal'

If the legislation comes to pass, will it actually be enforced in any realistic manner. Scotland introduced a pavement parking ban, has it been used? has it had any impact?

The police set a poor example. I understand the need to just stop the car and jump out in an emergency but I often seen the patrol car doing routine visits (and the CSI white van) bumped half on the pavement.

To my mind, I think it is just the automatic behaviour of the motorist today. I am going to park my car, I must put it half on the pavement to prevent causing an obstruction to other vehicles - or more likely prevent my precious tin box from getting damaged. This happens regardless of road width and/or pavement width.
 
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mmh

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Not helped in some cases by planning policies restricting the number of spaces. But, the number of spaces has no bearing on whether people park on the pavement or not. That's purely down to the width of the road, so is an issue on older streets, not modern developments (or shouldn't be!)
 

Meerkat

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Planning isn’t the problem. Two spaces is plenty. People just have to adapt.
I still think we need kei car type rules. Make the spaces small and only legal for small cars. You fit a lot more smart cars in a street than SUVs
 

DarloRich

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Planning isn’t the problem. Two spaces is plenty. People just have to adapt.
I still think we need kei car type rules. Make the spaces small and only legal for small cars. You fit a lot more smart cars in a street than SUVs

people in my street don't own an SUV for goodness sake! They own, generally, older small cars.
 

O8yityityit

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There are places where you have to park half on and half off. Some streets have signs where this is required. The problem with some of these roads is that to park completely on the road will prevent other cars from passing.

Sounds like you've fallen into the common belief that it's a right to park as close as possible to the place you want to visit.
 

mmh

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Planning isn’t the problem. Two spaces is plenty. People just have to adapt.
I still think we need kei car type rules. Make the spaces small and only legal for small cars. You fit a lot more smart cars in a street than SUVs

Two spaces isn't plenty if you're a household of 4 people, all working in different places.

By "adapt" presumably you mean "stop working?" Aside of lottery wins or retirement that doesn't happen. And when either of those happen I intend to have a car, thanks.

The anti-motoring lobby is quick with what they'd stop but slow with the solutions and alternatives.

Taking my car off me still won't widen my road, though. It'll still have cars on the pavement.
 

mmh

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Sounds like you've fallen into the common belief that it's a right to park as close as possible to the place you want to visit.

How far away would you like him to park? Why cause unnecessary congestion by making people drive around looking for the nearest space?

And the road is still narrow.
 

sprunt

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I trust you never do any of the following:
  • Get a lift in a car
  • Use a taxi, which is a car
  • Take a bus, which is driven by someone who got to work by car
  • Take a train, which is driven or guarded by someone who got to work by car
  • etc
If you do, you're a hypocrite, frankly.

No I'm not. I haven't said there shouldn't be cars, simply that the people who choose to own them need to take responsibility for their possessions and the impact that choice has on others.

Typical comment from someone who can't (or wont) see beyond their own nose.

As opposed to the people who feel their human rights have been infringed if they have to park more than ten yards from their home?
 

krus_aragon

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And a standard parking space, used in many planning / highway department was, remains, and possibly always will be 1.8m x 4.2m (edit: I can't quite remember the numbers off-hand).
Those numbers sound quite likely, 1.8m x 4.26m would equate to a nice round 6 feet by 14 feet.
 

Bletchleyite

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As opposed to the people who feel their human rights have been infringed if they have to park more than ten yards from their home?

Have you ever been to the large areas of terraced housing in older cities like Liverpool and Manchester?

Where exactly do you propose they park?

If you haven't, have a look at Google Maps and then give us your answer.
 

ainsworth74

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As opposed to the people who feel their human rights have been infringed if they have to park more than ten yards from their home?

But there is no-where else to park where I live? And whilst public transport is frequent (by some standards) with a half-hourly bus through most of the day but it's over an hour versus twenty minutes to the largest town. Why should I move (and where to considering the problem is widespread?) when we can accommodate everyone with a well regulated pavement parking scheme?
 

Ianno87

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Two spaces isn't plenty if you're a household of 4 people, all working in different places.

By "adapt" presumably you mean "stop working?" Aside of lottery wins or retirement that doesn't happen. And when either of those happen I intend to have a car, thanks.

The anti-motoring lobby is quick with what they'd stop but slow with the solutions and alternatives.

Taking my car off me still won't widen my road, though. It'll still have cars on the pavement.

"Adapt" as in 17-year olds no longer having an expectation, or even desire, for immediate car ownership the second of obtaining a licence.

A societal trend that has already began. I didn't own a car until the age of 26.
 

AndrewE

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I'm not a complacent oldie, just someone who realises that public transport will not replace the car for large parts of Britain. There are 3 commutes in our family. Deganwy to Llandudno, Llandudno to Manchester and Llandudno to Llanberis. The first two are convenient by public transport, despite being the shortest and longest. Realistically, the latter is impossible by public transport and that's not going to change, Greta Thunberg scowling or not.
In a sane world (where an infinite availability of road-space and fuel isn't considered to be a human right) no-one in their right mind would assume that they could make that last journey as a commute. Take digs locally or don't take the job. I took a job at an isolated place - and factored in the probable need to stay in B&B in winter when daily commuting wouldn't be viable. Luckily IT improvements and the possibility of working from home saved the need.
In 30 years of being on a road partly with no pavements, partly with pavements parked on I've never heard someone complain about how the cars are parked. If they weren't like that, where would they go?
Probably because everyone has the same mind-set: "How dare anyone suggest that I haven't got an absolute right to park close to my house!"
In my short cul-de-sac of 15 houses on the edge of a smallish town it is conspicuous that only about 6 people ever leave by any means other than driving. 1 man walks to football matches but never otherwise, 1 bloke walks/buses or cycles to work, another walks and my wife and I have a car but use bikes or shanks' pony for the majority of our trips out. (It lives in the garage most of the time, by the way, and the garage size determined the choice of car, as a new version of our previous one (which I would have liked) wouldn't fit in!
Things will have to change...
 
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mmh

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No I'm not. I haven't said there shouldn't be cars, simply that the people who choose to own them need to take responsibility for their possessions and the impact that choice has on others.



As opposed to the people who feel their human rights have been infringed if they have to park more than ten yards from their home?

Who are these people? Nobody on this thread has expressed that opinion.
 

mmh

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In a sane world (where an infinite availability of road-space and fuel isn't considered to be a human right) no-one in their right mind would assume that they could make that last journey as a commute. Take digs locally or don't take the job. I took a job at an isolated place - and factored in the probable need to stay in B&B in winter when daily commuting wouldn't be viable. Probably because everyone has the same mind-set: "How dare anyone suggest that I haven't got an absolute right to park close to my house!"

It's only the anti-car posters who are saying that here. Meanwhile the car drivers without off-road parking accept that they won't always be able to park outside their house. They do need to park somewhere though, and sometimes those roads are just too narrow, so you get pavement parking. Where are they supposed to go?

As for getting digs in Llanberis, why on earth would someone do that when they've a perfectly decent house within driving distance? And as for not taking the job, why would someone do that if the alternative is being on the dole? It's not an outrageous commute, it's about 25 miles each way.
 

mmh

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"Adapt" as in 17-year olds no longer having an expectation, or even desire, for immediate car ownership the second of obtaining a licence.

A societal trend that has already began. I didn't own a car until the age of 26.

Not sure I understand the age discrimination here. The household of 4 car drivers (which wasn't hypothetical, it was this house until a few years ago) are all considerably older than 17, but why shouldn't the 17 year old be able to work? There are large parts of Britain where most people do need to drive to work. And there are countless narrow residential roads that they live on.
 

Ianno87

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Not sure I understand the age discrimination here. The household of 4 car drivers (which wasn't hypothetical, it was this house until a few years ago) are all considerably older than 17, but why shouldn't the 17 year old be able to work? There are large parts of Britain where most people do need to drive to work. And there are countless narrow residential roads that they live on.

No age discrimination, no removal of ability to get to work.

More like being more generally (if not always) attracted to work in places commutable by public transport or active modes.

I'm not saying *everybody* is doing it or should do it....but the societal trend is headed that way.
 

Meerkat

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Two spaces isn't plenty if you're a household of 4 people, all working in different places.

By "adapt" presumably you mean "stop working?" Aside of lottery wins or retirement that doesn't happen. And when either of those happen I intend to have a car, thanks.

If you have two spaces then you have to adapt, just as all the people with only one car do, or those who live in flats with no parking. You either have to move work or house, or use public transport.

Have you ever been to the large areas of terraced housing in older cities like Liverpool and Manchester?

Where exactly do you propose they park?

I propose they don’t. Dense terrace housing is public transport territory. If the current owners can’t deal with that then they need to move and let people who will have access to housing near public transport. You don’t live in a tower block if you have a car, why should you live in a terraced house and expect to park?

Btw I am a long long way from anti car, but it isn’t an automatic right - there are compromises.
 

cactustwirly

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Planning isn’t the problem. Two spaces is plenty. People just have to adapt.
I still think we need kei car type rules. Make the spaces small and only legal for small cars. You fit a lot more smart cars in a street than SUVs
Kei cars are very inpracticle for long distance driving.
 

DarloRich

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You either have to move work or house, or use public transport.

If the current owners can’t deal with that then they need to move and let people who will have access to housing near public transport. You don’t live in a tower block if you have a car, why should you live in a terraced house and expect to park?

I know several people who live in a tower block and own cars.

I am not sure you, like many posters here, understand the pressures of real people. You and others have no practical solutions for the modern world. You seem to want to decide who may own a car based on their social stays. Live in a terraced house? You may not have a car.

Perhaps we could sign up for a car and have one assigned in 7 years. Hang on, they tried that in East Germany......................
 

mmh

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No age discrimination, no removal of ability to get to work.

More like being more generally (if not always) attracted to work in places commutable by public transport or active modes.

I'm not saying *everybody* is doing it or should do it....but the societal trend is headed that way.

Being in one of the more sparsely populated regions I'm very strongly opposed to the notion that people should have to move out to large towns and cities to find work. That can be disastrous for communities. Incidentally, the workplace I mentioned is where it is due to UK and EU grants, it is in a rural location by design, not accident!
 

Ianno87

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Absolutely removal of ability to get to work. When I lived in North Yorkshire you either drove or stayed in the village. The last bus was 1957.

And if that is your situation, absolutely free to own a car to get to work. I'm not suggesting otherwise.
 

DarloRich

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And if that is your situation, absolutely free to own a car to get to work. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

As long as i am not 17? Which I was at the time.
I suppose I could have walked the 5 miles to the pub i was working in. Mind you i did live in the countryside. I could have got a horse! Poor effort really.
 

Ianno87

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As long as i am not 17? Which I was at the time.
I suppose I could have walked the 5 miles to the pub i was working in. Mind you i did live in the countryside. I could have got a horse! Poor effort really.

That's really not what I said*. I suggest moving on...

*Which was more about thevtraditional culture of car ownership at 17 merely as a status symbol rather than fulfilling an actual transportation requirement. Noting that some 17 year olds do indeed need a car for such things. And some (indeed of any age) think they do, when they don't really.
 

bramling

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The same as if 6 or 7 or 8 all want to go out at the same time. The 'I want it all and I want it now' types will just have to suck it up.

It’s noticeable you always seem to manipulate things that you personally find disagreeable into people being selfish or self-entitled. Has it ever occurred to you that you may engage in activities which others find similarly disagreeable?

*Most* people will park on a pavement because in the particular situation they consider it the most sensible thing to do. They may even be being *considerate* in that it helps traffic flow better by avoiding blocking the road, whilst still allowing sufficient room for pavement users. Perhaps I’m picking up the wrong end of the stick, however I’m getting a distinct impression that you wish to see tightening up not for any practical reason but as a way of getting at people who you dislike, in the same way we’ve seen how you seem to despite those who dare to commute using a season ticket.
 
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