Parliamentary services and stations in next Northern Franchise

[berneyarms]

Aye its to save money by "closing" the line, which is stupid as freight would continue to use it anyway

Yes but that's not the point - the legalities and associated costs of withdrawing the passenger service are what's the issue.

There's nothing new about this at all.

 

[bradders1983]

I know, doesnt stop us having a moan about it

As an aside, when was the last time there was a Sheffield-Chesterfield (or reverse) service which called at Darnall and/or Woodhouse?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Alternatively, they could downgrade the stations to 'request stops'. The station remains but any local services that pass through it would only stop on request.

New Clee is sometimes not served when the conductor fails to turn up.
This happened yesterday. So request stops aren't encouraging for passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would the station still need to be maintained in order to provide a health and safety approved platform surface....or not?

I never heard of any health and safety requirement for platforms. Thorntom Abbey's served all day but it's platform is practically gravel and way too low.

 

[onlinespotting]

As they are currently operated by buses I think they are compliant in disability legislation even though the platforms aren't]

Though nowhere near a parliamentary line/station- Does this mean there would be access across the mainline at Lichfield Trent Valley? My mum struggles up and down the stairs from platform 3 when changing for lichfield City (it also acts as the footbridge).

 

[TBY-Paul]

Network Rail apparently deemed Teesside Airport unsafe to accommodate crowds.

I can understand that the platform would be a problem accommodating crowds after the event, but couldn't they have a queuing system in place similar to how Cardiff works on an event day.

 

[thenorthern]

Though nowhere near a parliamentary line/station- Does this mean there would be access across the mainline at Lichfield Trent Valley? My mum struggles up and down the stairs from platform 3 when visiting Lichfield City (it also acts as the footbridge).

Yep there will be access provided, I think they are going to put in an elevator at Lichfield Trent Valley.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only case I can think of is the Sinfin branch line which within 6 months after taking over Central Trains applied to terminate the services along the line which was accepted by the rail regulator although Sinfin was a very unique case.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040618071702/http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.5533

Yet the article itself states that the "franchising director" (OPRaF?) and CT proposed the closure? I suppose he may have been prompted to do so by Central Trains, but they don't get a mention separately under the heading 'background' further down the page.

 

[brompton rail]

Hmm. Does this happen currently? Would probably be done by re-routing an early morning Sheffield (or Leeds)-Nottingham train that way and missing out Dronfield. Really dont see the point of including this requirement, to be honest.

As well as the services mentioned by others, the 0601 Sheffield to Reading goes via the "Old Road" (Beighton / Barrow Hill) between Sheffield and Chesterfield. Today it was cancelled between Sheffield (actually from Crofton depot) and Derby and passengers advised to travel by EMT 0600 Sheffield to St Pancras service. Passengers would have had a wait at Derby of about 17 minutes!

 

[bradders1983]

So the line already gets a passenger service with XC, so no need for Northern to do the same then

 

[berneyarms]

So the line already gets a passenger service with XC, so no need for Northern to do the same then

Well that one is presumably for route knowledge retention, as is probably the Monday/Friday Northern service for Northern drivers.

The Saturday only one is probably the parliamentary train (i.e. retained for legal reasons).

The 17:00 XC Glasgow-Birmingham New Street also takes the same route between Sheffield and Chesterfield.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Realistically the DfT should consider closing some of the stations but I don't think it will ever happen.

Only DfT can close stations, not TOCs, and they don't seem inclined to do so.
They haven't even resolved Norton Bridge and other North Staffs stations yet.
Once Rall North and other devolved agencies are up and running I expect it will be down to them.

 

[thenorthern]

Only DfT can close stations, not TOCs, and they don't seem inclined to do so.
They haven't even resolved Norton Bridge and other North Staffs stations yet.
Once Rall North and other devolved agencies are up and running I expect it will be down to them.

I know that its the DfT who have final say however I understood franchise holders could ask the DfT if they can propose the closure of stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Only DfT can close stations, not TOCs, and they don't seem inclined to do so.

I checked the guidance before making my post earlier and DfT, NR or TOCs can all propose closures - but it is ORR that approves the closure, even when DfT propose it.

I'd agree that TOCs don't normally propose closures, but the rules as written do allow it:

1.3 Under the 2005 Act, closures can be proposed by a rail funding authority (RFA) or a train or network operating company. The RFAs specified in the 2005 Act are the Secretary of State for Transport, Scottish Ministers, the National Assembly for Wales, the English Passenger Transport Authorities and the Mayor of London. Where a train or network operating company proposes a closure, a view on whether it should be brought into effect must be taken by the relevant National Authority (Scottish Ministers or the Secretary of State). Proposals by operators and RFAs require ratification by the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR).

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/266296/railwaysclosuresguidance.pdf

Unless that guidance has been re-issued since, of course...

 

[pemma]

I checked the guidance before making my post earlier and DfT, NR or TOCs can all propose closures - but it is ORR that approves the closure, even when DfT propose it.

Network Rail did propose the closure of Reddish South station on the basis there was another station nearby with a decent service. However, there was uproar when they proposed that.

 

[infobleep]

Realistically the DfT should consider closing some of the stations but I don't think it will ever happen.

If it's too expensive to cease a parliamentary service now, why would it be any cheaper in a new franchise?

 

[WatcherZero]

Mid to high six figures in legal and consultation costs, usually well over ten times the annual running cost of a station.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Given the cost of lighting, signage (Teesside Airport has had new ones), posters, maintenance e.c.t how much per passenger do these parliamentary services cost to run?

One thing Northern Rail have done under the current franchise is revive Dunston, Blaydon, Manors and Dronfield stations so that they are usable although in most cases I think it was Nexus who encouraged that. I have heard Ardwick may get a better service soon but we will have to wait and see if it does.

Given that all stations must be completely accessible post 2020 I wonder if these parliamentary stations and other lightly used stations such as Braystones and Nethertown will be made accessible.

(My Bold) I'm wondering what they are going to do to make somewhere like Billingham (73,000+ pax) accessible. Being an island platform accessed by a 60's style concrete footbridge, making it accessible is going to be a challenge. I suppose a access ramp from the nearby bridge might be an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(My Bold) I'm wondering what they are going to do to make somewhere like Billingham (73,000+ pax) accessible. Being an island platform accessed by a 60's style concrete footbridge, making it accessible is going to be a challenge. I suppose a access ramp from the nearby bridge might be an option.

Aughton Park may similarly be very difficult without reconstruction of the (very old) road bridge. At present wheelchair users can choose Town Green or Ormskirk instead.

I suspect there will be easements for this, possibly on condition of the railway providing a free accessible taxi on demand to the nearest accessible station, or similar.

 

[thenorthern]

(My Bold) I'm wondering what they are going to do to make somewhere like Billingham (73,000+ pax) accessible. Being an island platform accessed by a 60's style concrete footbridge, making it accessible is going to be a challenge. I suppose a access ramp from the nearby bridge might be an option.

I would imagine they would just re-build the footbridge.

The Cumbrian Coast Line I think will be a challenge as many stations along the route have very low passenger numbers and re-building the stations will not be cost effective particularly Braystones and Nethertown.

British Steel Redcar could be an interesting one to re-build as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

There isn't a requirement to make all stations fully accessible by 2020.

Trains have to be compliant with certain access regulations by 2020, although that is an arbitrary date set by Government which may well move.

 

[WatcherZero]

No, isn't a stations 'have' to be fully accessible but is a requirement that stations 'should' be by 2020. A station operator must make a station compliant at the same time if it receives major work.

Guidelines here

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...5977/design-standards-accessible-stations.pdf

 

[TBY-Paul]

Network Rail apparently deemed Teesside Airport unsafe to accommodate crowds.

Just found this on the Air Show organisers facebook page,

"Unfortunately there will now be no extra trains on the day due to issues that bridge cant accommodate large numbers as stated by Northern Rail"


I'm guessing the bridge was only designed only for small amounts of passengers, or is it a case of H&S being used to justify not putting extra train services on.

It does seam a shame that the one time the Station is needed and could provide a useful means of transporting people it can't be used.

Just out of curiosity, what would have happened if the Show was the Sunday, and lots of passengers tried to use the two services that do call at the station not knowing that there wouldn't be any services later in the day to get home?

 

[thenorthern]

Just found this on the Air Show organisers facebook page,

"Unfortunately there will now be no extra trains on the day due to issues that bridge cant accommodate large numbers as stated by Northern Rail"


I'm guessing the bridge was only designed only for small amounts of passengers, or is it a case of H&S being used to justify not putting extra train services on.

It does seam a shame that the one time the Station is needed and could provide a useful means of transporting people it can't be used.

Just out of curiosity, what would have happened if the Show was the Sunday, and lots of passengers tried to use the two services that do call at the station not knowing that there wouldn't be any services later in the day to get home?

I would think the platforms may be an issue as well given that they are rather narrow and made of wood so probably can't support a heavy weight on them. Plus the whole station won't have been very well maintained for the past 20 years given the scarcity of the service.

I guess they would have to walk to Dinsdale if that happened on a Sunday.

 

[TBY-Paul]

I would think the platforms may be an issue as well given that they are rather narrow and made of wood so probably can't support a heavy weight on them. Plus the whole station won't have been very well maintained for the past 20 years given the scarcity of the service.

I guess they would have to walk to Dinsdale if that happened on a Sunday.

I was meaning more along the lines of a few hundred passengers trying to get on at one of the unmanned stations i.e Seaton Carew, Billingham & Stockton all going to the Airport for the show, not knowing there were no trains back and expecting to purchase a return ticket on the train.

Ignoring the fact that there wouldn't be trains services to get back from the Airport its self. How would the guard deal with the situation if the Station is deemed unsafe for large volumes, would they miss out the Station, or would they be allowed to get off at Teesside Airport?

It's alright for us on the forum, we know there's only one service per week, but those not in the know are a different matter.

 

[thenorthern]

I was meaning more along the lines of a few hundred passengers trying to get on at one of the unmanned stations i.e Seaton Carew, Billingham & Stockton all going to the Airport for the show, not knowing there were no trains back and expecting to purchase a return ticket on the train.

Ignoring the fact that there wouldn't be trains services to get back from the Airport its self. How would the guard deal with the situation if the Station is deemed unsafe for large volumes, would they miss out the Station, or would they be allowed to get off at Teesside Airport?

It's alright for us on the forum, we know there's only one service per week, but those not in the know are a different matter.

Difficult to say, Ninan Park Station used to be closed if Cardiff City were playing at home (It may still be) and Pudding Mill Lane DLR was closed during the Olympic. I guess with Teesside Airport its not happened yet so there is no answer.

 

[TBY-Paul]

I suppose it does beg the question, How did the station cope when the Air show was a regular event during the late 70's, Early 80's and services called at the station every day?

 

[ainsworth74]

My guess is that it's a mixture of differing safety standards compared to now and the 70s/80s and that I would guess that maintenance isn't a priority now that there are only two services per week so it isn't being maintained to as high of a standard (this isn't to say it's unsafe of course!).

 

[infobleep]

Mid to high six figures in legal and consultation costs, usually well over ten times the annual running cost of a station.

How were they able to afford to close so many stations in the 60s and earlier, not to mention some later.

 

[yorksrob]

How were they able to afford to close so many stations in the 60s and earlier, not to mention some later.

Comparative lack of public scrutiny and consultation required by law, hence the disastrous nature of some of the decisions made.

 

[MCR247]

As well as the services mentioned by others, the 0601 Sheffield to Reading goes via the "Old Road" (Beighton / Barrow Hill) between Sheffield and Chesterfield. Today it was cancelled between Sheffield (actually from Crofton depot) and Derby and passengers advised to travel by EMT 0600 Sheffield to St Pancras service. Passengers would have had a wait at Derby of about 17 minutes!

Although yesterday XC decided to cancel the ECS from Crofton and use a set from Central Rivers. There were, however, severe delays getting sets out of Central Rivers yesterday morning (not sure why) so the ECS terminated at Derby and the 1V81 started there