Parliamentary services and stations in next Northern Franchise

[crispy1978]

So - what else does a railway station with advertised footfall of <100 bring to the area, or perhaps more accurately what is lost by its closure/removal?

Is there some sort of subsidy the local council receive? I can't imagine why there would be public outcry really as surely the "Well you obviously aren't using it" / "Use it or lose it" cards would be played?

I understand there's a formal closure procedure to go through - is that the ToC or a National Rail who do this - be interested in the economics of keeping a station open and serving it twice a week v closing it down.

 

[Springs Branch]

From the service specifications of the tender documentation there are a large number of specified services - so OP I don't think that closure will be an option.

REQUIREMENT
One service shall be provided each week between the following stations in at least one direction:

Carnforth and Morecambe
Frodsham and Runcorn (from the last Sunday before Spring Bank Holiday weekend until the second Sunday in September, inclusive).
Eaglescliffe and Stockton
Ince and Wigan North Western
Wigan North Western and Patricroft
Wigan North Western and Newton-le-Willows
Worksop and Retford (High Level)
Sheffield and Chesterfield (via Woodhouse)
Dinting and Hadfield (not via Glossop)
Dinting and Glossop (not via Hadfield)
Hare Park Junction to Crofton West Junction
Calder Bridge Junction to Turners Lane Junction
Darlington and Eaglescliffe calling at Teesside Airport
Stockport and Guide Bridge, calling at Reddish South and Denton.
- - snip - -

Interesting to see this requirement for a service between Patricroft & Wigan North Western appearing in the Northern franchise bid.

At present there are regular trains passing between these stations, but these are the TPE Manchester Airport/Scotland trains which do not stop at Patricoft (or Eccles or Deansgate either).

Maybe this is looking forward a year or two to completion of the Preston - Bolton - Manchester electrification when Manchester/Scotland reverts to the Bolton route. Does this mean Northern will then be left to provide a new once-a-day/week parliamentary stopping train via Parkside & Eccles, similar to the single one-way Wigan NW - Newton-le-Willows - Liverpool LS service that's been running since through Lime St/Scotland trains were eliminated?

 

[thenorthern]

Suppose technically there are a few 'parliamentary' airports/routes.

Public subsidised routes, some of which the airline in question is legally required to provide:
Glasgow-Campbeltown
Cardiff-Anglesey
Donegal-Kerry
Newquay-London

And public subsidised airport:
Glasgow Prestwick

Carlisle Lake District Airport may be one of those soon, apparently a city with 75,000 residents is in desperate need of its own airport with direct flights to London Southend.

So - what else does a railway station with advertised footfall of <100 bring to the area, or perhaps more accurately what is lost by its closure/removal?

Is there some sort of subsidy the local council receive? I can't imagine why there would be public outcry really as surely the "Well you obviously aren't using it" / "Use it or lose it" cards would be played?

I understand there's a formal closure procedure to go through - is that the ToC or a National Rail who do this - be interested in the economics of keeping a station open and serving it twice a week v closing it down.

With no objections the closure part isn't that expensive its just the cost of bureaucracy and sticking up a few closure posters.

The big expense is when there is objections as each one has to be read though and answered and there is a risk that the ORR may then choose to reject your closure application based on the objections. Councils become involved and start mentioning that closing station is missing its "business potential" and then Greenpeace and Transport 2000 may get involved as well. If a station such as Etruria is on a main line then benefit outweighs the cost of closure as it means trains can then run faster but stops like Teesside Airport which are on a slower routes don't force passing trains to slow down so the cost of closure isn't justified the same.

 

[infobleep]

Carlisle Lake District Airport may be one of those soon, apparently a city with 75,000 residents is in desperate need of its own airport with direct flights to London Southend.



With no objections the closure part isn't that expensive its just the cost of bureaucracy and sticking up a few closure posters.

The big expense is when there is objections as each one has to be read though and answered and there is a risk that the ORR may then choose to reject your closure application based on the objections. Councils become involved and start mentioning that closing station is missing its "business potential" and then Greenpeace and Transport 2000 may get involved as well. If a station such as Etruria is on a main line then benefit outweighs the cost of closure as it means trains can then run faster but stops like Teesside Airport which are on a slower routes don't force passing trains to slow down so the cost of closure isn't justified the same.

So how does running faster trains after a station has closed save money compared to leaving it there?

 

[Buttsy]

So how does running faster trains after a station has closed save money compared to leaving it there?

I think the comment is here that Etruria station was closed so track could be realigned and also that fast services would not get held up by late running slow serrvices stopping at a station with little custom, therefore impacting on capacity.

 

[crispy1978]

It's the question of why people would protest about keeping a station open with only 8 passengers in a year?

I'm guessing it's more to do with people protesting for the sake of protestings sake with nothing better to do?

If we were looking at 1000 passengers per year I could understand a protest - but 8 (and did all 8 actually use their ticket?) I wouldn't understand.

 

[thenorthern]

It's the question of why people would protest about keeping a station open with only 8 passengers in a year?

I'm guessing it's more to do with people protesting for the sake of protestings sake with nothing better to do?

If we were looking at 1000 passengers per year I could understand a protest - but 8 (and did all 8 actually use their ticket?) I wouldn't understand.

There would be objections saying that because of the low number of trains calling the passenger numbers are low and if Northern Rail increased the number of trains calling at Teesside Airport then passenger number would go up which is correct although not to a level which would justify stopping more trains as the access to the airport is poor and there is no direct link to the A67 (officially). Darlington Council and Teesside Airport would also object. The ORR could then deny the closure making the whole process a waste.

A recent example was when there was a brief talk of the next Northern Franchise holder being allowed to close Reddish South and Denton and the local MP wasn't happy.
http://andrewgwynne.co.uk/2014/07/03/gwynne-hits-back-at-station-closure-claims/

 

[infobleep]

It's the question of why people would protest about keeping a station open with only 8 passengers in a year?

I'm guessing it's more to do with people protesting for the sake of protestings sake with nothing better to do?

If we were looking at 1000 passengers per year I could understand a protest - but 8 (and did all 8 actually use their ticket?) I wouldn't understand.

Perhaps the question should be why are so few people using it? Can do anything to increase the numbers.

One train a week in one direction isn't going to help numbers. Even one train day or three trains on a Saturday won't help numbers.

 

[onlinespotting]

Etruria had already had the track realigned insofar as only certain classes of train had been able to stop. There were originally objections to its closure which led to it staying open longer. First North Western ran a daily morning service to Manchester at around 0727 which was beyond what was obliged. When it closed it was many years before the tracks were aligned even more. So it was very difficult to close Etruria.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In comparison to Teesside airport Etruria was actually very well used by around 35 people per week
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There was also a daily bustitution to stoke in the opposite direction around 745

 

[thenorthern]

Etruria had already had the track realigned insofar as only certain classes of train had been able to stop. There were originally objections to its closure which led to it staying open longer. First North Western ran a daily morning service to Manchester at around 0727 which was beyond what was obliged. When it closed it was many years before the tracks were aligned even more. So it was very difficult to close Etruria.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In comparison to Teesside airport Etruria was actually very well used by around 35 people per week
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There was also a daily bustitution to stoke in the opposite direction around 745

Had Etruria not been on the main line I think it would still be open today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know its not a parliamentary but under the next Northern Franchise it would be nice if there were more trains to Newton Aycliffe as I always felt the 2 hourly service it currently receives is rather low for the size of the town.

Back on topic though was Etruria the last station to close in the country without a direct replacement on National Rail or light rail?

 

[Class 170101]

I know its not a parliamentary but under the next Northern Franchise it would be nice if there were more trains to Newton Aycliffe as I always felt the 2 hourly service it currently receives is rather low for the size of the town?

Roughly a 90 minute service. I thought Northern might have done something with the new Hitachi factory opening there.

 

[TBY-Paul]

I know its not a parliamentary but under the next Northern Franchise it would be nice if there were more trains to Newton Aycliffe as I always felt the 2 hourly service it currently receives is rather low for the size of the town

Isn't Darlington to Bishop Auckland due to get more services in the next franchise agreement? I'm sure I read something about it, although it might just have been the Sunday Service ?

Just Found where I read it
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112640 Post #6

 

[onlinespotting]

The (twice) realignment of track at Etruria increased lindspeed from 60-85mph,which is apparently irrelevant on the down as trains are already slowing down for stoke at Etruria

 

[Class 170101]

The (twice) realignment of track at Etruria increased lindspeed from 60-85mph,which is apparently irrelevant on the down as trains are already slowing down for stoke at Etruria

Some trains don't stop at Stoke - like freight traffic or a few passenger trains like this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P54575/2015/08/17/advanced

 

[crispy1978]

Some trains don't stop at Stoke - like freight traffic or a few passenger trains like this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P54575/2015/08/17/advanced

Is there still anything at Etruria? Wondering why it's still on RTT if it has been completely removed?

 

[Class 170101]

Is there still anything at Etruria? Wondering why it's still on RTT if it has been completely removed?

The station would have gone but the location as a Network Rail required timing point for all trains now all passing trains may well remain.

 

[furnessvale]

Is there still anything at Etruria? Wondering why it's still on RTT if it has been completely removed?

I think there is a large location cabinet about the size of a 30ft shipping container.

 

[thenorthern]

I think there is a large location cabinet about the size of a 30ft shipping container.

There is and there are some sidings although most of them don't see any use.

 

[crispy1978]

Can understand why it's still a 'timing 'pass' point' on RTT in that case.

 

[onlinespotting]

The site of Etruria is where Stoke on Trent city council proposed HS2 would stop in their bid against Crewe. We may well have seen Etruria reopening on a much grander scale had it been successful.

 

[nottinghamcity]

Can understand why it's still a 'timing 'pass' point' on RTT in that case.

A lot of now-defunct stations are still used as timing points. Two that spring immediately to mind are Monument Lane, near new St. And Elford, near Tamworth.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A lot of now-defunct stations are still used ......And Elford, near Tamworth.

Is that the one on the same line where Croxall station was situated?

 

[8A Rail]

Is there still anything at Etruria? Wondering why it's still on RTT if it has been completely removed?

The following link may be useful to you (& others) who do not realise were RTT obtains its information / live feeds from --- http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/about/sources The bottom line RTT is only as good as its original sources of information and they are not at fault if something has change or does not appear as it should. HTH.

 

[backontrack]

If Teesside Airport or any other lightly used station such as Salwick or Kirkton Lindsay was declared unsafe by the Health and Safety executive would Northern Rail/Network Rail go to the expense to repair it?

They'd probably pull a 'Polesworth' and only serve it in one direction if it involved an unsafe footbridge/subway, or do what others have suggested, which is a Sinfin-type taxi service.

 

[onlinespotting]

Some trains don't stop at Stoke - like freight traffic or a few passenger trains like this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P54575/2015/08/17/advanced

I think this is the only train per day that runs through stoke without stopping, apart from WCML diversions through Alsager, however these usually stop at Stoke too. (Giving Stoke additional connections).

Freight traffic will not be travelling fast enough for the straightening of lines at Etruria to affect them.

 

[thenorthern]

The air show at Durham Tees Valley Airport has now been cancelled after the crash at Shoreham, had Northern Rail not cancelled the proposed extra trains stopping at Teesside Airport already I am sure they would have now.

 

[Skutter]

The air show at Durham Tees Valley Airport has now been cancelled after the crash at Shoreham, had Northern Rail not cancelled the proposed extra trains stopping at Teesside Airport already I am sure they would have now.

The airshow has not been cancelled, but postponed until next May. Presumably Northern can now pressure Network Rail into repairing the footbridge and providing a working station again?

 

[thenorthern]

The airshow has not been cancelled, but postponed until next May. Presumably Northern can now pressure Network Rail into repairing the footbridge and providing a working station again?

By the time the next airshow is on Northern Rail won't even exit.

A new company will have submit their service level commitment to the DfT which will probably go along the lines of "one train per week in each direction to run on Sundays".

I wonder what the winning bidder will call the train operating the franchise when they take over, my guesses would be:

Abellio - probably would operate under the name Abellio Northern although they may decide to continue operating at Northern Rail for continuity reasons if Serco allows.

Arriva - They may consider resurrecting the name Arriva Trains Northern which seems possible although given the bad name ATN got and the fact that most Arriva TOCs now don't use Arriva in their name they may choose anything.

Govia - Generally Govia TOCs seem to like to operate under a name in which describes the area in which the services operate so the most logical name would be Northern although given that this is often used by Northern Rail they will probably want to wipe the slate clean. If Govia does win I wouldn't be surprised if it used sub-brands such as NorthEastern and NorthWestern.

All of this though is just pure speculation and anything could happen.

 

[onlinespotting]

I was at Longport once and a Northern 323 stopped at Longport and the driver popped his head out the window and said that he had been radioed to stop at Longport and pick anyone who is there up as the severe weather was causing trains to be canceled.

Apparently you can use the phone at Longport to request the Northern trains stop.

 

[pemma]

By the time the next airshow is on Northern Rail won't even exit.

A new company will have submit their service level commitment to the DfT which will probably go along the lines of "one train per week in each direction to run on Sundays".

Pre-May 2016 timetable change the new operator will just keep everything as Northern have left it, then they can start implementing changes to diagrams and services with the first major changes likely to be the December 2017 timetable change.

I wonder what the winning bidder will call the train operating the franchise when they take over, my guesses would be:

Abellio - probably would operate under the name Abellio Northern although they may decide to continue operating at Northern Rail for continuity reasons if Serco allows.

Arriva - They may consider resurrecting the name Arriva Trains Northern which seems possible although given the bad name ATN got and the fact that most Arriva TOCs now don't use Arriva in their name they may choose anything.

Govia - Generally Govia TOCs seem to like to operate under a name in which describes the area in which the services operate so the most logical name would be Northern although given that this is often used by Northern Rail they will probably want to wipe the slate clean. If Govia does win I wouldn't be surprised if it used sub-brands such as NorthEastern and NorthWestern.

All of this though is just pure speculation and anything could happen.

The next operator will not be Northern Rail Limited but the registered name of the company doesn't have to correspond with the name on the sides of the trains. Unless Northern Rail has been registered as a Trademark, Govia or Arriva could use the name as a brand name. Although, with the franchise likely to include Pacers being withdrawn, some brand new trains, cascaded Turbostars arriving and additional services I think a new name would be more appropriate given Northern Rail is seen as a low quality brand.

With Arriva it's difficult to say what they would go given a lot has changed since they were last awarded a franchise and they are currently undergoing restructuring and DB are set to float part of the business on the London Stock Exchange.