Part of Northern/TPE solution to replace Chiltern bound 170s revealed

[LNW-GW Joint]

So that's c.29 two-car dmus saved, and only 9 lost.
What has happened to the other c.20 sets?

There are more doubled-up Northern workings than there were.
I don't think that either 319 or 156 diagrams are optimum at the moment, with the 156s having to work from Allerton overnight.
There seem to be more 156s on CLC locals (these used to be pretty much all 142s), some doubled up.
319s are pretty much idle on Sundays still, with just the Airport service to work.

 

[Greybeard33]

There are more doubled-up Northern workings than there were.
I don't think that either 319 or 156 diagrams are optimum at the moment, with the 156s having to work from Allerton overnight.
There seem to be more 156s on CLC locals (these used to be pretty much all 142s), some doubled up.
319s are pretty much idle on Sundays still, with just the Airport service to work.

IIRC the original plan, under the previous Northern franchise, was for all the DMUs displaced by the first twelve 319s to be redeployed to strengthen overcrowded services elsewhere on the Northern network. That was before Northern got caught up in DfT's "solution" to the TPE 170 fiasco. Nine Northern 156s are now instead used M-F on ex-TPE services, indirectly replacing the nine 170s.

Even with the additional eight 319s, the two LHCS sets, the 180 and the service cutbacks (Liverpool - Blackpool, Airport - Windermere, Piccadilly - Chinley) I doubt that DMU service strengthening has yet reached the level promised back then.

 

[pemma]

IIRC the original plan, under the previous Northern franchise, was for all the DMUs displaced by the first twelve 319s to be redeployed to strengthen overcrowded services elsewhere on the Northern network. That was before Northern got caught up in DfT's "solution" to the TPE 170 fiasco. Nine Northern 156s are now instead used M-F on ex-TPE services, indirectly replacing the nine 170s.

John Oates understood there was originally a plan for Pacers to be removed from the Mid-Cheshire line once the 319s were introduced with the plan being to use mainly Allerton 156s on the line. With an ECS from Allerton to Chester each morning replacing the 2 from Longsight and Newton Heath.

I think the thinking was then 2 car workings through Bolton would be eliminated using the released 142s and 150s.

Even with the additional eight 319s, the two LHCS sets, the 180 and the service cutbacks (Liverpool - Blackpool, Airport - Windermere, Piccadilly - Chinley) I doubt that DMU service strengthening has yet reached the level promised back then.

The old plan (pre-2010 election) was TPE would get 10 x 350s and that Northern would eventually get 32 x 319s in total by 2016 without any plans for either operator to release any DMUs in their fleets.

I'm sure Northern could take on 12 extra 319s this year but as Bolton/Blackpool wires aren't ready all they could do with extra 319s is refurbish them and use them to cover failures.

 

[Mordac]

8 Thameslink 319s are going this month. Four more to follow later this year. This has been confirmed on one of the other threads. Like you, I suspect they will use them to 1) start the refurbishments; 2) cover failures so that they can actually start timing the services to EMUs rather than sprinters.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

8 Thameslink 319s are going this month. Four more to follow later this year. This has been confirmed on one of the other threads. Like you, I suspect they will use them to 1) start the refurbishments; 2) cover failures so that they can actually start timing the services to EMUs rather than sprinters.

It has been mentioned on a Northern employee forum, in respect of some trains departing early and others having to wait time, that data from the running of the 319s is being used to produce an EMU timetable for the December 2017 timetable change, with nothing else expected before then.

 

[pemma]

There seem to be more 156s on CLC locals (these used to be pretty much all 142s), some doubled up.

There was a booked 150 diagram and a booked 156 diagram before any 319s arrived. Although, while the ex-ATN 156s were getting refreshes it was commonplace to get a 142 or 150 on a 156 diagram.

 

[Bovverboy]

I think you've double counted some released DMUs. For instance, the pair of 142s which were used on the Manchester to Chinley working in the evening peak (which is now a 323 operated Manchester to Hazel Grove) weren't released in the morning peak.

I don't think that's correct, since the 0715 Macclesfield-Piccadilly is now 323-operated, whereas before it was a double pacer. It's not the same 323 as does 1723 Picc-Hazel Grove, but that's only because the diagrams have been shuffled.

Therefore, the use of the GC 180 working and putting the use of the extra 323 in the evening peak release two units in total, not four.

AM: 0715 ex-Macc (gone electric, saving two units); 0659 Huddersfield-Leeds (shortened, saving one unit); 0636 Victoria-Leeds (shortened, saving one unit).

PM: 1723 Picc-Hazel Grove (gone electric, saving two units); 1717 Liverpool-Blackpool (truncated to Preston & gone electric, saving at least one unit, possibly two); 1814 Victoria-Wigan NW (shortened, saving one unit).

Most of the 185s were replaced by 4 car 156s so we've got something like 8 x 156s replacing 4 x 185s.

Weren't more TPE services combined between MIA and PRE prior to the arrival of the 156s? I'm not sure about that one. Anyway, it's currently 9 156s operating on ex-TPE routes, replacing at least 5 185s.

There's also been a new Blackburn-Todmorden-Victoria service,

Yes, I'd forgotten that, so that's 5/6 units accounted for.

strengthening on the Bolton corridor and strengthening on one Mid-Cheshire morning peak service (the Bolton corridor getting more extra carriages in the evening peak) and possibly strengthening on other routes as well.

I can only go by what you say here, but we can only be talking 3/4 units in total, surely?

You also need to note 30m 142s can't directly replace much larger 46m 156s, anymore than a 2 car 156 can directly replace a 3 car 185.

I think that's what this is all about.

Following services will remain as four car but with reduced seating capacity,
07:57 Wigan NW – Victoria
08:21 Blackpool North – Huddersfield
08:44 Victoria – Southport
10:23 Southport – Manchester Airport
11:15 Huddersfield – Wigan Wallgate
12:03 Manchester Airport – Southport
13:45 Wigan Wallgate – Stalybridge
14:23 Southport – Manchester Airport
15:08 Stalybridge – Victoria
16:03 Manchester Airport – Southport
16:11 Victoria – Stalybridge
16:30 Stalybridge – Wigan Wallgate
18:15 Southport – Manchester Airport
18:24 Wigan Wallgate – Victoria
19:35 Victoria – Wigan Wallgate
20:03 Manchester Airport – Southport
22:18 Southport – Manchester Piccadilly

There are two diagrams jumbled together there, so if each has gone from 156+something to 142+something, then two 142s saved elsewhere have become two 156s saved.

Also EMUs are less flexible than DMUs so there's less efficient diagramming with some units having longer dwell times.

The only serious drop-back remaining involves the Airport service (c.xx.40 into Lime Street, c.xx.15 out). The c.40 minute drop-back at Victoria now only applies off-peak, at peak there's much less slack.

So if we were to suppose that the 319s were really diesel, and could therefore interwork with any four-car diesel diagram, how many units could be saved? One to two, I would guess.

For instance, a 4 car EMU can't split into two at the terminus station with 2 carriages going on to a non-electrified route.

I've already supposed that most of the 319s have replaced 2-car dmus, so I think that point is well covered.

 

[pemma]

I don't think that's correct, since the 0715 Macclesfield-Piccadilly is now 323-operated, whereas before it was a double pacer. It's not the same 323 as does 1723 Picc-Hazel Grove, but that's only because the diagrams have been shuffled.

It is correct. The 2 x 142s previously used on the extra Macclesfield service were released so that a Hazel Grove to Manchester service and a Manchester to Chester service (both the same diagram) could be 4 carriages instead of 2 and so that there was an extra 150 available for the former Northern Rail services on the Bolton corridor, not the former TPE services. That change was made by old Northern to add extra capacity to some of the most overcrowded morning peak services, not new Northern to find a solution to reduce the number of 185s they need to loan from TPE.

So if we were to suppose that the 319s were really diesel, and could therefore interwork with any four-car diesel diagram, how many units could be saved? One to two, I would guess.

Don't forget that if a pair of DMUs were used it allows one to be used off-peak, allowing a more flexible maintenance schedule as well as keeping mileage lower meaning less frequent servicing is required.

One of the reasons Northern use to defend DMUs being sat in sidings doing nothing on Saturday instead of strengthening services is because if they use them they'd have to be serviced more frequently and then it would increase the chance of short formed services on weekdays.

 

[Bovverboy]

It is correct. The 2 x 142s previously used on the extra Macclesfield service were released so that a Hazel Grove to Manchester service and a Manchester to Chester service (both the same diagram) could be 4 carriages instead of 2 and so that there was an extra 150 available for the former Northern Rail services on the Bolton corridor, not the former TPE services. That change was made by old Northern to add extra capacity to some of the most overcrowded morning peak services, not new Northern to find a solution to reduce the number of 185s they need to loan from TPE.

I'd momentarily forgotten that a 319 took over the Picc-Airport shuttle from a 323 as long ago as December of last year.

But if the displaced 323 covered the 0715 ex-Macc AM, what did it do PM? I believe it didn't start doing the 1723 Picc-Hazel Grove until May.

Am I correct in believing that currently 15 Northern 323s are scheduled for service M/F, or is one diagram I have down as 323-operated really a dmu?

 

[pemma]

But if the displaced 323 covered the 0715 ex-Macc AM, what did it do PM? I believe it didn't start doing the 1723 Picc-Hazel Grove until May.

Short answer is nothing unless there was an EMU failure as Northern weren't permitted to truncate the evening 1723 Piccadilly-Chinley service at Hazel Grove until they had reduced the number of 185s they required and TPE had starting making an additional call at Chinley in the evening peak.

Am I correct in believing that currently 15 Northern 323s are scheduled for service M/F, or is one diagram I have down as 323-operated really a dmu?

15 sounds right to me. One Alderley Edge diagram is timed for a 75mph DMU so that a DMU can fill in if they are short of EMUs but it's usually worked by a 323.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
Am I correct in believing that currently 15 Northern 323s are scheduled for service M/F, or is one diagram I have down as 323-operated really a dmu?

15 sounds right to me. One Alderley Edge diagram is timed for a 75mph DMU so that a DMU can fill in if they are short of EMUs but it's usually worked by a 323.

I don't think there's an 'Alderley Edge' diagram now in the sense that there used to be, i.e. an afternoon stint which did nothing other than Picc-Alderley Edge. The two diagrams which do Alderleys in the middle of the day both do other things at the fringes, i.e. Crewe/Stoke. Furthermore, the timings of the two appear to be identical and both are given as timed for Class 323.

 

[Starmill]

Nobody has reported this yet (?) but it would appear Northern have submitted a new Track Access Application for a service to start back at Halifax using Grand Central stock to Leeds in the morning peak.

To all of those who said it was worth considering starting it from there (including me ) well done, for once we were actually right about something

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Nobody has reported this yet (?) but it would appear Northern have submitted a new Track Access Application for a service to start back at Halifax using Grand Central stock to Leeds in the morning peak.

To all of those who said it was worth considering starting it from there (including me ) well done, for once we were actually right about something

Don't they already do this from Bradford?

 

[Bungle965]

Don't they already do this from Bradford?

Yes under their plans they are starting the service one stop back at Halifax.
Sam

 

[TC60054]

Yes under their plans they are starting the service one stop back at Halifax.
Sam

Assuming Low Moor is open by the time the service has started back from Halifax, would it be reasonable to assume the service would also call there?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Assuming Low Moor is open by the time the service has started back from Halifax, would it be reasonable to assume the service would also call there?

May 2017 was the last projected date that I saw for the new Low Moor station to be opened.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Assuming Low Moor is open by the time the service has started back from Halifax, would it be reasonable to assume the service would also call there?

I believe GC do plan to call at LMR once it opens, subject to approval. On that basis it would make sense for this additional service to call there as long as doing so wouldn't impede other Calder Valley services.

 

[lejog]

Nobody has reported this yet (?) but it would appear Northern have submitted a new Track Access Application for a service to start back at Halifax using Grand Central stock to Leeds in the morning peak.

To all of those who said it was worth considering starting it from there (including me ) well done, for once we were actually right about something

It has been previously reported in the December 2016 Timetable thread, along with the fact that the 6.36 train from Victoria is reverting to 4 car, if it hasn't already.

It looks like the Grand Central 180 on loan to Northern has been removed - the 0636 Victoria to Leeds has been doubled as it now appears to split on arrival at Leeds to form the 0818 to Morecambe and 0826 back to Victoria

;Now in RTT but starting back from Halifax at 07.28.

I had reason to catch the 6.36 a couple of months back (fortunately from Hebden Bridge), having forgotten it was 2 car and it was hell from Halifax as predicted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also interestingly both these trains will be (simultaneously) using Platform 6 at Leeds. In the past I've wondered about Leeds station supposedly being full to capacity in the morning peak when a full length platform next to the ticket gates seems to be free.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've just seen this post that suggests that the 6.59 from Huddersfield (0758 into Leeds) is also reverting to a 158+142, which means that previous service is being restored and the 180 is an addition.

Cheers! Did think it was a little strange for it to be not there.
Will give a decent amount of capacity on a morning from the Calder Valley

Arrivals at Leeds 0730-0900 will be

2E33 0746 Man Victoria (158 3 car)
2W60 0758 Hudds via Brighouse (142+158)
2T99 0807 Halifax (GC 180)
2E36 0813 Man Victoria (150+158)
1B09 0822 Preston (158 3 car)
2E37 0844 Man Victoria (158 3 car)
2W64 0856 Hudds via Brighouse (144+144/3)

 

[Starmill]

Grand Central have applied for the right to call at Low Moor, yes. Even if they are turned down, this train would still be able to call because it's a Northern service, not Grand Central.

 

[bradford758]

The plan is for all GC Bradford-London trains and Northern trains EXCEPT those to/from Manchester and Blackpool to call. All short working trains will call.

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[Starmill]

Yeah, so 1tph when there isn't a GC, which is most of the time.

 

[lejog]

Which of course means that only 1tph from Huddersfield stops. I'd be less than certain about the 180 stopping, the Franchise Agreement TSRs specify that Northern only have to provide 1tph at Low Moor even in the peak hours. With the preceding train being a Huddersfield service restored to 4 car operation, calling at Low Moor less than 10mins before the 180 passes through, I see little incentive for Northern to make stops above the specification.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Which of course means that only 1tph from Huddersfield stops. I'd be less than certain about the 180 stopping, the Franchise Agreement TSRs specifies that Northern only have to provide 1tph at Low Moor even in the peak hours. With the preceding train being a Huddersfield service restored to 4 car operation, calling at Low Moor less than 10mins before the 180 passes through, I see little incentive for Northern to make stops above the specification.

Though if GC London services are given permission to call (and as I see it there's little reason for permission to be denied) having the Northern-operated 180 service call would be some useful free advertising!

 

[lejog]

Arriva don't seem to be showing much enthusiasm for providing services to Low Moor and new stations like Elland - they want to cut the Huddersfield-Halifax-Leeds service to a Huddersfield to Halifax shuttle.

We discussed that Arriva had suggested that we focus on delivering a new station at Elland and the Halifax station gateway scheme (though bearing in mind that one of their main interests in this is driven by the opportunity to save on rolling stock units by operating a Halifax – Hudderfield shuttle, still at 1 train per hour, though they are to be fair keen to work on upgrading the station gateway). We also discussed that their view is that we should focus in the short term on improving connectivity between Huddersfield – Halifax and Bradford by bus rather than rail, as in their opinion this is not the sort of journey type that rail is best at serving

WYCA minutes extract

Although I did hear that they want to use the path into Leeds to extend the Manchester Airport to Bradford service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Arriva don't seem to be showing much enthusiasm for providing services to Low Moor and new stations like Elland - they want to cut the Huddersfield-Halifax-Leeds service to a Huddersfield to Halifax shuttle.

WYCA minutes extract

Although I did hear that they want to use the path into Leeds to extend the Manchester Airport to Bradford service.

Why on earth does the Manchester Aiport service need extending to Leeds?

 

[Starmill]

Presumably because they think it would be more use providing Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and wherever else it calls with an extra service to Leeds. They may also think there's some value in a direct train to Manchester Airport for Bramley or New Pudsey?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Arriva don't seem to be showing much enthusiasm for providing services to Low Moor and new stations like Elland

What new station in Elland? I was not aware that one had recently opened there.

 

[lejog]

Presumably because they think it would be more use providing Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and wherever else it calls with an extra service to Leeds. They may also think there's some value in a direct train to Manchester Airport for Bramley or New Pudsey?

Correct, at the moment the new franchise offers no extra services into Leeds from the Calder Valley towns, with the extra service terminating at Bradford. Also presumably this would give Northern a share of Leeds to Manchester Airport revenues and the opportunity to undercut TPE on Advance fares (Northern Leeds to Victoria Advances never seem to go above £3).

On the other hand few people use the Huddersfield service from either there or Brighouse to travel through to Leeds when there are faster alternatives from both stations.