(Partial) West Anglia route additional third track and new station at Meridian Water

[sjoh]

Yes...but intermingling a branch shuttle with the Bishops Stortford and Hertfird East services could undermine reliability of the service when the main lines suffer delay. At least this way..you could have a dedicated shuttle up and down the branch regardless of what happens north of Coppermill Jn on the West Anglia main line. Currently, delays on the mainline often see the Stratford service cancelled.
ECS moves to and from Orient Way can be routed via Channelsea Jn. In any case..the occupation of Stratford platforms would only be 9 mins!

I understand your point, but in my opinion efficient use of already scarce stock should be more of a priority than insurance against such disruption. Especially as any disruption north of Angel Road can potentially be mitigated by running Stortford services fast between there and Stratford to make up time (safe in the knowledge that there's still the shuttle available), and any disruption south of there will most likely
affect the third line anyway. Still, I do get you.

Incidentally, does anyone know why Hertford East and Stortford services switch termini during the peaks? (or at least I believe they used to)

 

[47421]

The off peak service sees all Stratford - Lea Valley services go to Stortford, in the peak two are diverted to Hertford East to provide extra services to Hertford East with the stops at the secondardy stations from Brox to Stortford being picked up by the extra 1TPH in the peak stopper LivSt to Camb, and the case of Sawbridgeworth by two stops on LivSt Stansted Apt services.

BTW does anyone know if Meridian Water is an 8 or 12 car platform? If 8 will the signal be off the end of the platform so 10 car 720s (equiv length of 12 car 317) can use the new third track?

 

[sjoh]

The off peak service sees all Stratford - Lea Valley services go to Stortford, in the peak two are diverted to Hertford East to provide extra services to Hertford East with the stops at the secondardy stations from Brox to Stortford being picked up by the extra 1TPH in the peak stopper LivSt to Camb, and the case of Sawbridgeworth by two stops on LivSt Stansted Apt services.

BTW does anyone know if Meridian Water is an 8 or 12 car platform? If 8 will the signal be off the end of the platform so 10 car 720s (equiv length of 12 car 317) can use the new third track?

Thanks! Just spent some time working out the West Anglia timetable and it is complex! Actually hadn't realised that during the peak Cambridge gets 4tph (2 fast 2 semi fast). In fact both of these semi fast services pick up the calls between Broxbourne and Stortford.

From what I can ascertain, during the peak, the usual 28/58 Cambridge paths are taken by Broxbourne terminators, with the Hertford East paths then becoming semi fast Cambridge's (from Hackney Downs - HE services therefore going via Seven Sisters). Then an extra 2 fast Cambridges are slotted in to what I presume are spare paths just before the StanEx. Presumably these manage to squeeze through at Clapton because the Chingford service doesn't call at Bethnal Green, thus arriving and departing a little earlier.

Is that about right?

 

[47421]

Yes WestAnglia is a surprisingly complicated timetable, in the peak at least. The diversion of the LivSt Hertford East service via Seven Sisters means that Lea Valley stops have to be picked up by the xx00, xx30 LivSt Brox peak only terminators, but they have to fit in with the fast Camb services (xx07) and so have to skip stop with other stops being made on the Stratford to Lea Valley services. It is not very satisfactory - Lea Valley stations arguably need a much more regular service (eg Ponders end gets only 2TPH even in peak, dont TfL aim for 6TPH minimum?) and longer distance services all catch stoppers anyway. It is a shame therefore that STAR is just a siding, it is better than nothing, and the increase from 2TPH to 4TPH TottHale to Stratford will be useful for Camb/Stansted to Stratford journeys, but it does nothing at all for capacity on West Anglia in general, which means all peak time StanExp and Camb 'fast' services will continue to catch stoppers for the forseeable future, until Crossrail two comes probably.

 

[sjoh]

Yes WestAnglia is a surprisingly complicated timetable, in the peak at least. The diversion of the LivSt Hertford East service via Seven Sisters means that Lea Valley stops have to be picked up by the xx00, xx30 LivSt Brox peak only terminators, but they have to fit in with the fast Camb services (xx07) and so have to skip stop with other stops being made on the Stratford to Lea Valley services. .

Broxbournes are at 26/56 from LST, but yes.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes...but intermingling a branch shuttle with the Bishops Stortford and Hertfird East services could undermine reliability of the service when the main lines suffer delay. At least this way..you could have a dedicated shuttle up and down the branch regardless of what happens north of Coppermill Jn on the West Anglia main line. Currently, delays on the mainline often see the Stratford service cancelled.
ECS moves to and from Orient Way can be routed via Channelsea Jn. In any case..the occupation of Stratford platforms would only be 9 mins!

ECS moves can't go via Channelsea due to conflicts with North London Line services into/out of Platforms 1/2.

Hence Platform 12 has to be kept clear for ECS.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes WestAnglia is a surprisingly complicated timetable, in the peak at least. The diversion of the LivSt Hertford East service via Seven Sisters means that Lea Valley stops have to be picked up by the xx00, xx30 LivSt Brox peak only terminators, but they have to fit in with the fast Camb services (xx07) and so have to skip stop with other stops being made on the Stratford to Lea Valley services. It is not very satisfactory - Lea Valley stations arguably need a much more regular service (eg Ponders end gets only 2TPH even in peak, dont TfL aim for 6TPH minimum?) and longer distance services all catch stoppers anyway. It is a shame therefore that STAR is just a siding, it is better than nothing, and the increase from 2TPH to 4TPH TottHale to Stratford will be useful for Camb/Stansted to Stratford journeys, but it does nothing at all for capacity on West Anglia in general, which means all peak time StanExp and Camb 'fast' services will continue to catch stoppers for the forseeable future, until Crossrail two comes probably.

As a timetable, it's actually a very decent compromise between a lot of considerations

-Stansted/Cambridge outer journey times
-15 minute interval Stansted Express
-Decent spread of service at Harlow, Bishop's Stortford, etc.
-2-4tph at 'inner' stations evenly spread
-22tph capacity into Liverpool Street

Try and make one thing better...something else inevitably gets worse!

 

[Bald Rick]

As a timetable, it's actually a very decent compromise between a lot of considerations

-Stansted/Cambridge outer journey times
-15 minute interval Stansted Express
-Decent spread of service at Harlow, Bishop's Stortford, etc.
-2-4tph at 'inner' stations evenly spread
-22tph capacity into Liverpool Street

Try and make one thing better...something else inevitably gets worse!

Indeed, and it is the best current compromise. Which is why my fiver is on it not changing materially.

 

[306024]

The timetable dates back to the December 2011 re-write, which sought to improve the service to Stratford and make best use of the extra 379s on the Cambridge main line. And be fit for the Olympics.

The peak Hertford services were sent via Southbury as they were fairly full from Cheshunt, so the Broxbourne starters could pick up the Lea Valley passengers. Not ideal to swap routes but it was the least worse option to reduce overcrowding.

The Stansted Express providing extra capacity from Stortford and Harlow Town to London, and also linking both towns to the Airport, is a good compromise. It is designed to ensure there is always a train in the platform at both Liverpool St and Stansted available to board. Curiously it departs Liverpool St, at 10/25/40/55 past the hour, same as Heathrow Express at Paddington.

 

[Bald Rick]

Curiously it departs Liverpool St, at 10/25/40/55 past the hour, same as Heathrow Express at Paddington.

Remarkable coincidence!

 

[plcd1]

The off peak service sees all Stratford - Lea Valley services go to Stortford, in the peak two are diverted to Hertford East to provide extra services to Hertford East with the stops at the secondardy stations from Brox to Stortford being picked up by the extra 1TPH in the peak stopper LivSt to Camb, and the case of Sawbridgeworth by two stops on LivSt Stansted Apt services.

BTW does anyone know if Meridian Water is an 8 or 12 car platform? If 8 will the signal be off the end of the platform so 10 car 720s (equiv length of 12 car 317) can use the new third track?

I don't know for certain but the new platform at Tottenham Hale is certainly nowhere near 12 cars long. It simply doesn't stretch far enough north and is not as long as the existing platforms. I haven't seen the new build at Northumberland Park or Meridian Water close up. Whether the new infrastructure has been built to accomodate the future 10 car formations I don't know - I'd not be shocked if it hasn't given no one seems to have funded Network Rail to extend platforms more generally on the Lea Valley routes.

On a tangential note it is interesting how busy the Stratford - T Hale service now is. Even contra peak, T Hale to Stratford in the PM Peak, there were well over 50 people waiting at TH for a s/b service when I used it recently. There was also about 40 people at Lea Bridge. I suspect the increased frequency could lead to a real explosion in usage if a regular headway is achieved between S'ford and T Hale. There won't be a particularly good offer north of T Hale because of the stopping constraints on the main line but it will be better than now.

 

[Alfie1014]

I don't know for certain but the new platform at Tottenham Hale is certainly nowhere near 12 cars long. It simply doesn't stretch far enough north and is not as long as the existing platforms. I haven't seen the new build at Northumberland Park or Meridian Water close up. Whether the new infrastructure has been built to accomodate the future 10 car formations I don't know - I'd not be shocked if it hasn't given no one seems to have funded Network Rail to extend platforms more generally on the Lea Valley routes.

Except that the new 10 cars equate to current 12 cars in length, so if the new platforms aren’t long enough they’ll have to use SDO or be 5 cars = 6 in today’s money, (like Hertford East is going to have to be!)

 

[plcd1]

Except that the new 10 cars equate to current 12 cars in length, so if the new platforms aren’t long enough they’ll have to use SDO or be 5 cars = 6 in today’s money, (like Hertford East is going to have to be!)

Ah, I'm not up to speed on the new trains for Gtr Anglia. Looks like STAR and the Bishops Stortford / Hertford East stoppers will be limited to 5 cars in future then. Lea Bridge can only take 8 cars at present, certainly not 12. Stratford services do see some 8 cars in the peaks but generally it's 4 whenever I've used it. As it's sufficiently up to date the Google satellite view shows the difference in platform lengths at T Hale.

 

[47421]

Indeed, and it is the best current compromise. Which is why my fiver is on it not changing materially.

Yep, IIRC the peak TSR for WestAnglia is very similar for TS1/2/3 under the 2016 Franchise Agreement, just addition of STAR being the only major change. The much vaunted large increases in capacity being based almost entirely on running longer (10 car 720s = equiv length of 12 car 317) trains with much higher density seating.

But what we don't know is whether they will in fact be able to run those longer trains. 10 cars cant go to Hertford East, and sounds as if may not be able to operate STAR. Also if Enfield Lock platform not extended up trains will overhang crossing if they stop at signal at end of platform and SDO. We wait to see what enhancements will be funded in CP6 to accommodate the longer trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep, IIRC the peak TSR for WestAnglia is very similar for TS1/2/3 under the 2016 Franchise Agreement, just addition of STAR being the only major change. The much vaunted large increases in capacity being based almost entirely on running longer (10 car 720s = equiv length of 12 car 317) trains with much higher density seating.

But what we don't know is whether they will in fact be able to run those longer trains. 10 cars cant go to Hertford East, and sounds as if may not be able to operate STAR. Also if Enfield Lock platform not extended up trains will overhang crossing if they stop at signal at end of platform and SDO. We wait to see what enhancements will be funded in CP6 to accommodate the longer trains.

There’s no funding for platform extensions in the CP6 pipeline. They are supposed to be delivered by GA as part of their franchise agreement.

 

[47421]

There’s no funding for platform extensions in the CP6 pipeline. They are supposed to be delivered by GA as part of their franchise agreement.

Indeed by 30 Sept 2018 I think it says.

When you say nothing in CP6 is that cus you have some info on what NR are planning for enhancements in Anglia in CP6? I thought the enhancements plan had not been published yet.

It is all a bit odd - if the work is not done 'full fleet replacement' will have to be updated to 'full fleet replacement other than on services to Hertford East, Harwich to Manningtree and Wickford to Walton'. And they will have to get a wiggle on with PRM mods on 317s unless Hertford East goes over to 379s or something or is limited to 5 car 720s

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed by 30 Sept 2018 I think it says.

When you say nothing in CP6 is that cus you have some info on what NR are planning for enhancements in Anglia in CP6? I thought the enhancements plan had not been published yet.

It is all a bit odd - if the work is not done 'full fleet replacement' will have to be updated to 'full fleet replacement other than on services to Hertford East, Harwich to Manningtree and Wickford to Walton'. And they will have to get a wiggle on with PRM mods on 317s unless Hertford East goes over to 379s or something or is limited to 5 car 720s

No info other than they are in the GA franchise agreement, therefore they won’t be in the CP6 plan. Government won’t be funding the same thing twice.

 

[47421]

Just re-up this to note realtimetrains shows no additional services Meridian Water / Angel Road to Stratford from May 19. Poster on Londonreconnections suggests Sept 2019 for the new additional 2TPH service earliest now. It is pretty poor, but not surprising, that GA/DfT/NR cannot deliver this on time (or only 6 months late, was originally a Dec 18 deliverable) - it involves a single set of points, 3 miles or so of single track on a existing trackbed (ie a long siding), a few signals, one new station and new platforms at two others.

We can add it to the long list of failures to deliver by GA (this is a summary of key obligations in FA, it ignores financial underperformance/drawdown of subordinated shareholder funding a la VTEC and ongoing poor operational performance, likely delays to 720s taking into account the 6m+ delay to 710s on Goblin/WestAnglia inners, also lists some future deadlines for reference):

• Schedule 6.2 para 76.6 by 1 May 2018 introduce anytime flex carnet and off peak flex carnet
• Schedule 6.2 para 105 by 1 Sept 2018 extend platforms at Hertford East, Wickford, Manningtree, Kings Lynn, Elsenham, Ware, St Margarets and Enfield Lock Stations
• Schedule 6.2 para 9.1 by 31 Oct 2018 automatic SDO on 27x317 and beacons at 96 platforms
• Dec 18 TSR 2TPH Meridian Water to Stratford
• Schedule 6.2 para 4 by 31 Dec 2018 ontrain wifi on entire existing fleet

• Schedule 6.2 para 81 by 30 Jan 2019 use best endeavours to introduce post-pay account based ticketing London to Southend V, Norwich or Cambridge
• Schedule 6.2 para 80 by 30 April 2019 introduce 6m pilot for near field communication smartphone ticketing
• May 2019 TSR 2 (Hertford East 2TPH to 3TPH off peak only/Southend Vic 3TPH to 4TPH off peak only/Norwich Cambridge hourly extended to Stansted Airport all day/LivSt Ipswich hourly semifast extended to Norwich all day)
• Schedule 6.2 para 51 complete redevelopment of stations at Brox, Cheshunt, Harlow Town and Southend Vic
• Schedule 6.2 para 10 date unspecified but must mean by 31 Dec 2018 complete PRM mods on 27x317

• May 2020 TSR 3 full recast with 1144 additional services a week
• Schedule 6.2 para 51 complete redevelopment of Cambridge station by 31 Dec 2020

 

[sjoh]

Not really sure it's fair to blame GA in any way for this, unless you expect them to run trains over gravel.

 

[Bald Rick]

The infrastructure was a CP5 deliverable, due by end March 19. Which it will be.

 

[47421]

The infrastructure was a CP5 deliverable, due by end March 19. Which it will be.

I think it was a Dec 18 deliverable in 2016/17 but changed to 2019 in late 2017 Enhancements Delivery Plan. The service requirement under the Franchise Agreement certainly says new service expected to start Dec 18.

Anyway does anyone know if GA have bid to run the service from May 19? I assumed not as realtimetrains has GA services from May with no new Stratford - Meridian Water service, whereas it does show updated GE timetable with the changes needed to accommodate the token Norwich in 90 services.

 

[Railperf]

Here is a journey from Lea Bridge to Tottenham Hale shot yesterday showing progress to date between this stations.

Still loads of work to be done ..so I cannot imagine May 2019 being a realistic start date for services along here.

 

[Ianno87]

Big work to be done (from my observations passing on train) is:

-Finish slab track under Ferry Lane bridge (Tottenham Hale), and wire this stretch
-Finish stations (Meridian Water looks a fair way off)
-Commission signalling, etc.

 

[Class 170101]

The infrastructure was a CP5 deliverable, due by end March 19. Which it will be.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't blame GA for waiting why would you risk bad publicity in the way Northern did for a new timetable that couldn't be delivered despite NR assurances, on infrastructure that was delayed and as such outside their control. Not surprised therefore that this enhancement isn't being delivered in May.

 

[87015]

Commissioning is in March. Late starts across the area is a giveaway.
Edit. Not published in RTT yet, soon...

 

[47421]

Network Rail tweeted out the video on this page yesterday where Project Sponsor bod says are working so "ready for service in May 2019", lets hope that is achieved, still not showing in realtimetrains

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/lee-valley-rail-programme/

 

[silverfoxcc]

In addition to this upgrade ( ETC May 2019?) going slightly o/t is there a timescale for the White Hart Lane upgrade?

 

[Class 170101]

Network Rail tweeted out the video on this page yesterday where Project Sponsor bod says are working so "ready for service in May 2019", lets hope that is achieved, still not showing in realtimetrains

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/lee-valley-rail-programme/

I would have thought NR would have finished uploading the timetable by now, certainly Greater Anglia trains for May seem to be there. So I would suggest it probably isn't happening in May.

 

[47421]

I have now seen an email from a senior bod at Network Rail saying Meridian Water station should open May 19 to pick up the current peak time only Angel Road stops with the new siding in use for 2TPH all day from September 2019

 

[47421]

As posted on other thread RTT now shows enhanced STAR service starting Monday 9 Sept 2019. Some observations below

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/09/11/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It is basically 2TPH from Meridian Water, generally xx08, xx38 from MW, being the MW starters, but with few peak extras, basically the existing Angel Road stops, but one of them in AM moving 30 mins 0724 to 0756

Most of the day it is 4TPH TottHale - Stratford, although diagrams are integrated between Bishops Stortford / Stratford and Meridian Water / Stratford, which means the service pattern is not entirely regular and in the peak it actually becomes less frequent with only 3 departures from Stratford in the 1700/1800/1900 hours http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/09/11/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

and from MW some 45 min gaps in evening peak.

Diagrams below worked out from RTT. Note as now some diagrams work to Hertford East, so no 10 car 720s. Do we know if MW/Northumberland Park/TottHale new platform can accommodate 10 car 720s with SDO?

0516 OW - LS 0539
0548 LS - BX 0629
0639 BX - S 0711
0717 S - MW 0732
0738 MW - S 0753
0804 S - BS 0902
0917 BS - S 1008
1016 S - MW 1031
1038 MW - S 1053
1100 S - BS 1156
1215 BS - S 1310
1316 S - MW 1331
1338 MW - S 1353
1400 S - BS 1456
1515 BS - S 1610
1616 S - MW 1631
1638 MW - S 1653
1700 S - MW 1715
1736 MW - S 1751
1800 S - MW 1815
1836 MW - S 1851
1900 S - MW 1915
1936 MW - S 1951
2000 S - BS 2056
2115 BS - S 2210
2216 S - MW 2231
2238 MW - S 2253
2300 S - BS 2351
2359 BS - SA 0008

0457 SA - BX 0522
0522 BX - BX 0535
0540 BX - HE 0556
0606 HE - LS 0701
0712 LS - HE 0802
0817 HE - S 0911
0917 S - MW 0932
0938 MW - S 0953
10000 S - BS 1056
1115 BS - S 1210
1216 S - MW 1231
1238 MW - S 1253
1300 S - BS 1356
1415 BS - S 1510
1516 S - MW 1531
1538 MW - S 1553
1600 S - BS 1656
1715 BS - S 1809
1817 S - HE 1908
1925 HE - BX 1942
2012 BX - S 2038
2046 S - MW 2101
2108 MW - S 2123
2130 S - BS 2223
2230 BS - BSCS 2233

0634 BSCS - HT 0652
0656 HT - S 0741
0747 S - MW 0802
0808 MW - S 0823
0834 S - BS 0932
0947 BS - S 1040
1046 S - MW 1102
1108 MW - S 1123
1130 S - BS 1223
1247 BS - S 1340
1346 S - MW 1401
1408 MW - S 1423
1430 S - BS 1523
1547 BS - S 1638
1647 S - BS 1756
1815 BS - S 1909
1930 S - BS 2028
2047 BS - S 2140
2146 S - MW 2201
2208 MW - S 2223
2230 S - BS 2323
2330 BS - BSCS 2333

0513 BSCS -BS 0516
0530 BS - S 0630
0636 S - BS 0714
0733 BS - S 0841
0847 - MW 0902
0908 MW - S 0923
0930 S - BS 1023
1047 BS - S 1140
1146 S - MW 1201
1208 MW - S 1223
1230 S - BS 1323
1347 BS - S 1440
1446 S - MW 1501
1508 MW - S 1523
1530 S - BS 1623
1643 BS - S 1736
1747 S - BS 1856
1915 BS - S 2010
2016 S - MW 2031
2038 MW - S 2053
2100 S - BS 2156
2215 BS - S 2309
2317 S - ILFORD EMUD 2350

0546 S - MW 0601
0622 MW - S 0637
0644 S - MW 0659
0708 MW - S 0723
0734 S - BS 0832
0843 BS - S 0941
0947 S - MW 1002
1008 MW - S 1023
1030 S - BS 1123
1147 BS - S 1240
1246 S - MW 1301
1308 MW - S 1323
1330 S - BS 1423
1447 BS - S 1540
1546 S - MW 1601
1608 MW - S 1623
1630 S - BS 1723
1747 BS - S 1838
1847 S - BS 1956
2015 BS - S 2110
2116 S - MW 2131
2138 MW - S 2153
2200 S - BS 2256
2306 BS - BSCS