Passenger etiquette?

[al78]

I wouldn't, I'd tell (not ask) them to shift. Mainly because now VTWC has a seat selector, I normally reserve a window seat in a priority row to ensure legroom.

The problem is, you are on a loser, even if technically you are in the right. What do you do if the person stubbornly refuses to move? You have no power over them, unless you want to risk an assault charge (or a beating) by physically moving them against their will. This is one reason why people behave like bloody minded tossers, because in some situations they gain from it, get away with it, and no-one is or can do anything about it.

 

[diffident]

The problem is, you are on a loser, even if technically you are in the right. What do you do if the person stubbornly refuses to move? You have no power over them, unless you want to risk an assault charge (or a beating) by physically moving them against their will. This is one reason why people behave like bloody minded tossers, because in some situations they gain from it, get away with it, and no-one is or can do anything about it.

In those such instances, get the train stopped at the next calling point and have the BTP remove the offending person from the train.

Making a show of them in front of all the other passengers would soon get a carriage full of people in their faces if there was the risk of a delay to their journey I can assure you!!

 

[Esker-pades]

Personally, I think if you choose to sit somewhere else, tough. Don't expect to be able to move back.

If I'm on a train with paper reservations and I choose to sit somewhere else, I will (provided that there isn't another reservation for after I get off) remove the ticket from the seat. It's only fair, surely?

I remove my own reservation if I decide I'm going to sit elsewhere.

 

[bramling]

So you think it's acceptable to occupy one seat and keep a second reserved seat available to you for a whole journey?

If somebody attempted to turf me out of a seat that they decided to claim after sitting elsewhere for over an hour then they'd get short shrift. Completely selfish behaviour, expecting another passenger to act as a human placeholder for them to be moved on like a seat filler at the oscars when a celebrity turns up.

There is of course a simple solution to all the seat reservation aggro, do away with reservations entirely.

Must admit the more I read on here about issues and problems the more I’m coming round to the idea that it would just be simpler not to have reservations. I can’t see it happening though.

 

[LowLevel]

In those such instances, get the train stopped at the next calling point and have the BTP remove the offending person from the train.

Making a show of them in front of all the other passengers would soon get a carriage full of people in their faces if there was the risk of a delay to their journey I can assure you!!

Good luck with that. It doesn't work in reality. If BTP say they'll be there in 2 hours because they've got better things to do sadly mob rule nowadays results in a 'big man' scenario where someone films it, it ends up online and much hand wringing occurs.

You could try sitting on them or a tactic I have known employed previously is to remove their belongings and watch them follow. Works well with fare evaders. I once had a bloke buy a ticket to the next stop and hide in the toilet. However he left his bag on the seat so I chose to assume he had gotten off where he said he would and take it away and book it into lost property. Ha ha. Small victory for me to brighten my day. However you do risk things getting nasty and you have to ask yourself if you can deal with them without getting hurt or falling foul of the law yourself and thus is it worth it?

My point is it's easy to bluster about 'do this, that or the other' on the internet and a very different thing to apply it to a real world situation.

 

[theironroad]

On Saturday, I was travelling on an XC train from Reading to Birmingham. It was busy at Reading and had standing passengers from Oxford.

At Reading, I found a table seat, unoccupied but marked 'reserved Bournemouth to Birmingham New Street'. I checked with the guy in the next seat and it was vacant so I took it.

At Banbury, more passengers boarded. One approached an existing passenger in an airline seat, and asked for it, as they had it reserved from Banbury. Bumped passenger vacated the airline seat, and asked me to move, as they had reserved the seat I was in from Bournemouth.

I did move to stand, but should I have done? Part of me says that if someone asks for a seat it's polite to give it to them. But another part says that if you have a reservation and you choose not to use it at the outset, then you've given up your right to it.

Any thoughts?

As the passenger who asked you to move out of their booked seat because they were occupying another (which they must have known was also booked from Banbury) is being very selfish. The least they could of done is give you a heads up that they might need their booked seat later if they get kicked out (which they did) and then you could have made an informed decision about finding another seat.

All very awkward and unsatisfactory.

 

[theironroad]

Must admit the more I read on here about issues and problems the more I’m coming round to the idea that it would just be simpler not to have reservations. I can’t see it happening though.

Well that's what Swt (now swr) did a number of years ago on all services, including to Exeter, Weymouth and Portsmouth.

Seat reservations were one of the biggest causes of arguments on trains and life has been a lot simpler since. If you want to sit together or want a table, get their early.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it actually a requirement to have a reservation part on you though. No ticket = no travel, the reservation is only for a seat surely.

For an Advance you do as the ticket exists in two (or more) parts - the ticket and the reservation.

For a walk-up ticket, no, you don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is, you are on a loser, even if technically you are in the right. What do you do if the person stubbornly refuses to move? You have no power over them, unless you want to risk an assault charge (or a beating) by physically moving them against their will. This is one reason why people behave like bloody minded tossers, because in some situations they gain from it, get away with it, and no-one is or can do anything about it.

In the first instance I would seek the guard to ask for assistance, politely explaining the circumstances as to why I wanted that seat or an equivalent.

If the guard refused to assist and there was no equivalent seat available[1], I would sit elsewhere but a complaint would be going in. I would consider it the guard's job to enforce seat reservations up to and including BTP assistance should this be necessary; it is basically a ticketing offence, as no valid ticket was held for that seat.

Indeed, I would like to see some prosecutions for the matter (given that the Byelaw exists), as it is impossible for someone to be caught out by accident - it is equivalent to being on a train without a ticket *and wilfully refusing to purchase one*.

[1] Coach A seat 41 is tolerable

 

[sprunt]

If you want to sit together or want a table, get their early.....

It doesn't matter how early you get there if the platform is only announced 10 minutes before the departure time. Or if you aren't getting on at the origin point of the service.

 

[jon0844]

I've heard TMs in VTWC recently start to ask people to sit in their allocated seat and not use another, in order to make sure seats don't remain empty.

I have no idea if it is enforced but at least everyone will hear the request and also understand the implications of sitting somewhere else.

But some people still won't care.

 

[DanTrain]

Or if you aren't getting on at the origin point of the service.

Exactly! Why should the good people of Stockport be punished for their Pendolino being full of Mancunians when it arrives. Same goes for those who live in Runcorn, Chesterfield, Durham, Bath, Newport... Seat reservations ensure that those who have booked a seat get one, regardless of where they got on!

 

[route101]

I've heard TMs in VTWC recently start to ask people to sit in their allocated seat and not use another, in order to make sure seats don't remain empty.

I have no idea if it is enforced but at least everyone will hear the request and also understand the implications of sitting somewhere else.

But some people still won't care.

Never been told off for sitting away from my reserved seat . If its quiet ill move .

One thing i hate is if say the carriage is quiet and youve got someone reserved next to you , you hope they move to give you some space.

 

[GW43125]

One thing i hate is if say the carriage is quiet and youve got someone reserved next to you , you hope they move to give you some space.

Or as I had once, everyone booked together in one carriage with the next four almost completely empty!

 

[whhistle]

I've booked tickets recently and asked for FACING tickets
ALL of these have been REAR-Facing tickets (and yes, I double checked that the FACING option was ticked!!)

If there's no more facing tickets for that journey, there's only one other option.

 

[E759]

Onboard a GCR train to Northallerton (for Wensleydale Railway) and the TM has just told passengers with Reservations to sit in their seats so people can see what seats are available.

 

[diffident]

Good luck with that. It doesn't work in reality. If BTP say they'll be there in 2 hours because they've got better things to do sadly mob rule nowadays results in a 'big man' scenario where someone films it, it ends up online and much hand wringing occurs.

You could try sitting on them or a tactic I have known employed previously is to remove their belongings and watch them follow. Works well with fare evaders. I once had a bloke buy a ticket to the next stop and hide in the toilet. However he left his bag on the seat so I chose to assume he had gotten off where he said he would and take it away and book it into lost property. Ha ha. Small victory for me to brighten my day. However you do risk things getting nasty and you have to ask yourself if you can deal with them without getting hurt or falling foul of the law yourself and thus is it worth it?

My point is it's easy to bluster about 'do this, that or the other' on the internet and a very different thing to apply it to a real world situation.

This I absolutely agree with, it is a very different situation applying things in the heat of a real situation as opposed to discussing it theoretically.

In the first instance I would seek the guard to ask for assistance, politely explaining the circumstances as to why I wanted that seat or an equivalent.

If the guard refused to assist and there was no equivalent seat available[1], I would sit elsewhere but a complaint would be going in. I would consider it the guard's job to enforce seat reservations up to and including BTP assistance should this be necessary; it is basically a ticketing offence, as no valid ticket was held for that seat.

Indeed, I would like to see some prosecutions for the matter (given that the Byelaw exists), as it is impossible for someone to be caught out by accident - it is equivalent to being on a train without a ticket *and wilfully refusing to purchase one*.

[1] Coach A seat 41 is tolerable

Again, further to LowLevel's point above... It's all well and good going to find the guard/TM for assistance, but I fear that there is a risk that you might not get the assistance that I would certainly expect, which would be the support of the railway to remove someone from your legitimately booked, and legally your seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, further to LowLevel's point above... It's all well and good going to find the guard/TM for assistance, but I fear that there is a risk that you might not get the assistance that I would certainly expect, which would be the support of the railway to remove someone from your legitimately booked, and legally your seat.

I do see the issues - however, if policy is not to make any attempt to enforce (or any attempt beyond "excuse me would you mind moving please?"), then reservations should be abolished as they have no credibility.

 

[route101]

Or as I had once, everyone booked together in one carriage with the next four almost completely empty!

Must be the IT systems that do that .

 

[diffident]

I do see the issues - however, if policy is not to make any attempt to enforce (or any attempt beyond "excuse me would you mind moving please?"), then reservations should be abolished as they have no credibility.

Either that or make certain routes reservation only. I think XC would certainly benefit from being a reservation only service, especially with their 10 minute reservation 'innovation'. There must be a way for say a season ticket holder running Gloucester-Birmingham everyday to whip onto the app on their way to Gloucester station in the morning (or indeed the night before) to reserve a seat and vice-versa, when they know what time they will leave Birmingham, book a seat for the leg home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either that or make certain routes reservation only

Though compulsory reservations don't solve the problem of people sitting in the wrong seat, they just mean nobody ends up standing.

As for our Gloucester commuter...what if the entire service is full for that day?

 

[[.n]]

Either that or make certain routes reservation only. I think XC would certainly benefit from being a reservation only service, especially with their 10 minute reservation 'innovation'. There must be a way for say a season ticket holder running Gloucester-Birmingham everyday to whip onto the app on their way to Gloucester station in the morning (or indeed the night before) to reserve a seat and vice-versa, when they know what time they will leave Birmingham, book a seat for the leg home.

That wouldn't work as apparently there is a limitation in their system that only allows a particular seat to be reserved for up to 3 legs of a journey - I've never managed to book a TMR on XC and I've tried loads!

 

[Clip]

Onboard a GCR train to Northallerton (for Wensleydale Railway) and the TM has just told passengers with Reservations to sit in their seats so people can see what seats are available.

Good. I see no reason at all for people to move into an unreserved seat if they have a reservation.

 

[diffident]

Though compulsory reservations don't solve the problem of people sitting in the wrong seat, they just mean nobody ends up standing.

As for our Gloucester commuter...what if the entire service is full for that day?

One day (such as Cheltenham races for example) would be tolerable - travel earlier or later - and this would be the case with compulsory res or not.

But if it came to the point where our Gloucester commuter was regularly struggling to reserve his seat, then it would be the most undeniable evidence for the TOC that they were under-capacity and I'm sure season-ticket holders/unions/the media would soon have something to say about that, especially when there is undeniable evidence to prove it.

 

[DanTrain]

One day (such as Cheltenham races for example) would be tolerable - travel earlier or later - and this would be the case with compulsory res or not.

But if it came to the point where our Gloucester commuter was regularly struggling to reserve his seat, then it would be the most undeniable evidence for the TOC that they were under-capacity and I'm sure season-ticket holders/unions/the media would soon have something to say about that, especially when there is undeniable evidence to prove it.

This doesn't work though. Trains all around the country are regurarly full, not uncommonly leaving people behind because there's no room to stand, and yet the media/travelling public carry on regardless. All you're proposing is a 100% cut in the capacity of certain services. Also, what happens if a train is cancelled? XC like cancelling services due to delays, so how are the passengers on that service meant to get home if the others are (not unsuprisingly) full? Taxis from Birmingham to Newcastle? National Express??

 

[diffident]

This doesn't work though. Trains all around the country are regurarly full, not uncommonly leaving people behind because there's no room to stand, and yet the media/travelling public carry on regardless. All you're proposing is a 100% cut in the capacity of certain services. Also, what happens if a train is cancelled? XC like cancelling services due to delays, so how are the passengers on that service meant to get home if the others are (not unsuprisingly) full? Taxis from Birmingham to Newcastle? National Express??

I don't understand your point? If XC cancelled a service today to from Birmingham to Newcastle, the situation would be exactly the same with or without a reservation-only system in place.

I think it would be rather crazy to commute Birmingham to Newcastle on a daily basis, and if it was a journey I was making on a regular basis, I would be booking tickets with seat reservations considering the journey length. I can't think of many examples where that journey would be a regular walk up customer.

To take your point about my apparent proposal for a 100% capacity cut... not sure what you are getting at there other than a reservation only train wouldn't be conveying standing-only passengers.

Capacity here is key. It was one of the most idiotic ideas in the history of privatised railways to think that ordering 4 and 5 car trains to replace HST's was the way forward. I don't want to get into a debate about frequency and the original idea of more shorter trains because that doesn't help capacity at all.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that with technology as it is, should one wish to travel on an XC service from Birmingham to Newcastle at 17:30 today, that person whether they already have a ticket or not, would be required to reserve a seat on that service - be it via a website, app, ticket office, ticket machine, whatever. If there isn't a seat available, then its a wait for the next train assuming that has a seat.

If a National Express coach is full, you can't book it. If a flight is full, you can't book it. I see no reason why intercity services in the UK should be any different.

 

[alastair]

Well that's what Swt (now swr) did a number of years ago on all services, including to Exeter, Weymouth and Portsmouth.

Seat reservations were one of the biggest causes of arguments on trains and life has been a lot simpler since. If you want to sit together or want a table, get their early.....

Indeed. I sometimes wonder why a route like Bristol/Portsmouth apparently needs to have reservations, while Salisbury/Exeter seems to do OK without given the routes have a lot of similiarity - roughly hourly services, 3/5/6 car trains etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand your point? If XC cancelled a service today to from Birmingham to Newcastle, the situation would be exactly the same with or without a reservation-only system in place.

It would. Today, people just board the next train and stuff it full. With compulsory reservations you can't.

And it doesn't solve the problem of people sitting in the wrong seats!

 

[diffident]

And it doesn't solve the problem of people sitting in the wrong seats!

It mitigates it. If someone on a reservation-only train is in someone else's seat, you a) tell them to sit in their own seat -or- b) if for some reason the won't/can't mutually accept to swap seats.

Either way, you will have a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It mitigates it. If someone on a reservation-only train is in someone else's seat, you a) tell them to sit in their own seat -or- b) if for some reason the won't/can't mutually accept to swap seats.

Either way, you will have a seat.

Most trains I use don't have standing passengers other than commuter trains which don't have reservations anyway. So that could apply in any case.

Yes, XC and TPE are overcrowded for much of the day, but that needs solving by adding capacity, whatever you do with reservations.