Passenger etiquette?

[DanTrain]

I don't understand your point? If XC cancelled a service today to from Birmingham to Newcastle, the situation would be exactly the same with or without a reservation-only system in place.

I think it would be rather crazy to commute Birmingham to Newcastle on a daily basis, and if it was a journey I was making on a regular basis, I would be booking tickets with seat reservations considering the journey length. I can't think of many examples where that journey would be a regular walk up customer.

What I mean is that if a service is cancelled currently, people can cram onto the next train and at least get home. With compulsary reservations, you'd a) have a lot of people stuck in Birmingham who couldn't get home, and b) if your train was cancelled and you're on an advance ticket, how would you book another reservation, even more so if it is cancelled part-way through it's journey.

To take your point about my apparent proposal for a 100% capacity cut... not sure what you are getting at there other than a reservation only train wouldn't be conveying standing-only passengers.

Capacity here is key. It was one of the most idiotic ideas in the history of privatised railways to think that ordering 4 and 5 car trains to replace HST's was the way forward. I don't want to get into a debate about frequency and the original idea of more shorter trains because that doesn't help capacity at all.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that with technology as it is, should one wish to travel on an XC service from Birmingham to Newcastle at 17:30 today, that person whether they already have a ticket or not, would be required to reserve a seat on that service - be it via a website, app, ticket office, ticket machine, whatever. If there isn't a seat available, then its a wait for the next train assuming that has a seat.

If a National Express coach is full, you can't book it. If a flight is full, you can't book it. I see no reason why intercity services in the UK should be any different.

I do take your point here, and in an ideal world this would be the case. However, I don't see XC services gaining the required boost in capacity in the next 5 years to make this workable, so at least in the short to medium term this proposal would cause huge problems on the network, with people forced to drive if they want any sort of flexibility at all.

 

[kristiang85]

I do like the system in Japan where there are reserved cars and unreserved cars. If you have a reservation you go to your part of the train, if you don't you take your chances in the non-reserved car. Obviously though this means a fee for the reservation (quite steep in some cases!). I'm actually supportive of this system in the UK - bring down the price of base rail fares, but pay extra if you want a guaranteed seat.

Obviously I'm only talking about long-distance services and not commuter services.

As it is with our current system, the main failing is the passengers. I usually sit in my reserved seat, unless I've been given one of those horrible table seats when I specified airline, then I'll find an unreserved one. On the odd occasion I've sat in a reserved seat that hasn't been claimed, and I've yet to have a problem. So I fully support the 15min "claim your seat or lose it" role - in the case of the OP the other passenger was in the wrong, and exploiting British awkwardness to get their way.

Another bugbear of mine is the amount of times TOCs' seat reservation systems fail (I'm looking at you Virgin and GWR!) and ALL seat reservations are cancelled. Surely if you have it on a piece of paper you are entitled to that seat. I know its annoying for passengers to get shuffled around if they don't know which seats are free, but again the Japanese solution would sort that out.

 

[trainophile]

Another thing that occurs to me, if you book ahead for an Anytime or Off Peak ticket (as opposed to an Advance) but know which trains you intend to catch so select them during the booking process, you are often given a seat reservation automatically whether you want one or not. I've seen seat reservations for Cwmbran to Abergavenny, a 15 minute journey, presumably because people have ticked the boxes out of habit. It's hardly surprising these are often vacant, as you may get on in Coach A with a seat reservation in C, and it doesn't seem worth traipsing through the train.

 

[kristiang85]

It's hardly surprising these are often vacant, as you may get on in Coach A with a seat reservation in C, and it doesn't seem worth traipsing through the train.

It would really help if platforms were marked with the coach numbers, like on the continent and pretty much everywhere else. I remember Branson tried it with Virgin, but said nobody liked it so he scrapped it - I could never understand how people would complain against something that was clearly very helpful!

 

[Parallel]

It would really help if platforms were marked with the coach numbers, like on the continent and pretty much everywhere else. I remember Branson tried it with Virgin, but said nobody liked it so he scrapped it - I could never understand how people would complain against something that was clearly very helpful!

There are also too many routes where the train may have either end leading, like Cardiff - Pompey, ATW Marches and XC services.

 

[6Gman]

Another thing that occurs to me, if you book ahead for an Anytime or Off Peak ticket (as opposed to an Advance) but know which trains you intend to catch so select them during the booking process, you are often given a seat reservation automatically whether you want one or not. I've seen seat reservations for Cwmbran to Abergavenny, a 15 minute journey, presumably because people have ticked the boxes out of habit. It's hardly surprising these are often vacant, as you may get on in Coach A with a seat reservation in C, and it doesn't seem worth traipsing through the train.

I've seen seat reservations Manchester Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly!

 

[6Gman]

It would really help if platforms were marked with the coach numbers, like on the continent and pretty much everywhere else. I remember Branson tried it with Virgin, but said nobody liked it so he scrapped it - I could never understand how people would complain against something that was clearly very helpful!

Virgin still do it at many of their stations (though by number rather than coach numbers/letters). And announce it "First Class in Zones 1 to 4, Standard Class in Zones 5 to 11" or similar. There are also posters I believe which will tell you where to stand for specific coaches.

 

[trainophile]

With my Cwmbran-Abergavenny example, with ATW you never know whether you're going to get 2 coaches or 3, a 175 or a 158, so it's very hit and miss trying to guess where to wait!

 

[DavidGrain]

Having several times travelled on Virgin and previously BR trains from Birmingham to London which were the wrong way round it is irrelevant to have the carriage numbers on the platform. XC Voyagers can come in any way round depending on whether or not they reverse. For example not all Manchester - Bristol and beyond take the Camp Hill line through Birmingham. I have not checked this but I have been told that some Southampton to Birmingham trains run via Guildford on Sundays so do not reverse at Reading

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do like the system in Japan where there are reserved cars and unreserved cars. If you have a reservation you go to your part of the train, if you don't you take your chances in the non-reserved car. Obviously though this means a fee for the reservation (quite steep in some cases!). I'm actually supportive of this system in the UK - bring down the price of base rail fares, but pay extra if you want a guaranteed seat.

Yes, that's the system I propose would make sense here. It's also what PKP use (other than on the Pendolinos) - reservations aren't compulsory per-se, but if you don't want to keep playing musical chairs you need one.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[Hadders]

Obviously I'm only talking about long-distance services and not commuter services.

What is a long distance service and what is a commuter service?

Is Peterborough to Kings Cross with LNER long distance or commuter (the journey takes around 50 minutes)
Then what about Cambridge to Kings Cross which takes a similar amount of time?

Is the 0616 Virgin Train from Euston to Manchester which arrives at 08:28 long distance or commuter? It calls at Stoke on Trent at 08:05 and gets swamped by Stoke commuters into Manchester for the short journey. If you decide it's long distance where to the Stoke commuters go? There would then be complaints about long distance trains carting fresh air about.

It's not that straightforward.

It would really help if platforms were marked with the coach numbers, like on the continent and pretty much everywhere else.

LNER (and VTEC, EC and NXEC before them) do this but it does rely on consistent train lengths so it's harder for Virgin has they have 9 and 11 car trains so they do it by zone instead.

 

[STKKK46]

If a National Express coach is full, you can't book it. If a flight is full, you can't book it. I see no reason why intercity services in the UK should be any different.

I can see two reasons - it’s safe to stand on a train unlike the other examples, and demand is huge for rail travel.

I turn up to a station every other Saturday not knowing if I’m going to be travelling half way across the country comfortably or standing and to be honest couldn’t care less. If the train is right to get me somewhere at a certain time, I can do away with comfort.

 

[Hadders]

I can see two reasons - it’s safe to stand on a train unlike the other examples, and demand is huge for rail travel.

I turn up to a station every other Saturday not knowing if I’m going to be travelling half way across the country comfortably or standing and to be honest couldn’t care less. If the train is right to get me somewhere at a certain time, I can do away with comfort.

There goes flexible travel, and the ability to make a journey at the last minute. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[LowLevel]

Every ICEC [LNER] station has coach letter signs posted along each platform ("Wait here for Coach F"), and those signs have been in place for a good few years now.

Watch people waiting for LNER trains and you'll hear a litany of "Where's coach F?", or indeed people waiting until the train actually stops and then saying "Which coach are we in?". A significant proportion of people don't actually pay enough attention for the information to make all that much difference.

I'd say it's still worth providing the information for those few people who do pay attention, though.

The other problem is people who only half pay attention. This is seen regularly at Peterborough where the LNER boards for A & B are at the far end of the platform. Odd hour EMT Norwich services use platform 4 or 5 due to the Ipswich service being in platform 6 so whenever it arrives there's invariably a few running down for their 2 or occasionally 4 coach train from the platform ends.

 

[marks87]

Yes, that was definitely the option I would have chosen in most situations. Busy train, people waiting to pass down the train and deep-rooted picnickers led me to leave them be. Lots of tutting and jobs-worth remarks on me first showing them I had seat reservations for where they were sat though.

An attitude like that would make me more determined to turf them out!

Not dissimilar to the "attitude test" applied by the police.

This should only happen if all TOCs offer a seat selector so you can book your optimal seat.

Agreed.

When I travel with my bike on ScotRail, I want to stay as close as possible to it - which couldn't be done under the "sit in your seat" proposal when my Advance booking puts me in coach A and the bike space is in Coach B.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I travel with my bike on ScotRail, I want to stay as close as possible to it - which couldn't be done under the "sit in your seat" proposal when my Advance booking puts me in coach A and the bike space is in Coach B.

VTWC do this best of all by reserving 4 (I think) seats at the end of Coach A for cyclists, right next to where the bikes go. Obviously if there are no bikes you can sit there anyway, as with any reservation.

 

[diffident]

I can see two reasons - it’s safe to stand on a train unlike the other examples, and demand is huge for rail travel.

I turn up to a station every other Saturday not knowing if I’m going to be travelling half way across the country comfortably or standing and to be honest couldn’t care less. If the train is right to get me somewhere at a certain time, I can do away with comfort.

Agreed for commuter and regional services, but I don't agree for long distance services. I note your reason for opposing compulsory reservations on long-distance trains is predicated on supply and demand. The crux of this discussion is that capacity is far below demand.

The issue of seat reservations wouldn't be an issue if the capacity was there to start with, and the discussion of compulsory reservation simply wouldn't be taking place as there would be enough accommodation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed for commuter and regional services, but I don't agree for long distance services. I note your reason for opposing compulsory reservations on long-distance trains is predicated on supply and demand. The crux of this discussion is that capacity is far below demand.

The issue of seat reservations wouldn't be an issue if the capacity was there to start with, and the discussion of compulsory reservation simply wouldn't be taking place as there would be enough accommodation.

The other option is to go further with yield management - but as I've said before, that would mean Anytime fares only on the WCML from about 1400 until end of service on Fridays, and from about 1300-2100 on Sundays, as those, not the alleged business "peaks", are the busiest times.

 

[kristiang85]

There are also too many routes where the train may have either end leading, like Cardiff - Pompey, ATW Marches and XC services.

Easily solved by digital coach numbers.

 

[Esker-pades]

Easily solved by digital coach numbers.

First Class slightly screws that up. If the digital displays mean that coach A is always leading, that means first class will be a different coach each time. That will seriously mess up reservations.

 

[trainophile]

I’m currently on a 2-coach ATW to Newport and it’s packed. A woman across the aisle has her bags on the window seat, and when a group of four got on she completely ignored the fact that she was taking up two seats. I remarked quietly about it to my husband, and she challenged me straight away about it being extremely rude to talk about other people, to which I replied that it’s extremely rude to occupy two seats. She clearly wanted to make something of it, so I just kept batting back her insults, until it got boring. The lads in the group of four said it’s okay, so I dropped it, but she has been glowering at me ever since.

No consideration, and I have to say she looks the part .

 

[DavidGrain]

First Class slightly screws that up. If the digital displays mean that coach A is always leading, that means first class will be a different coach each time. That will seriously mess up reservations.

At Birmingham New Street the display does say for XC trains which end of the train first class will be so those reversing trains have to say 'front of the train on arrival and rear of the train on departure' or vice versa. This may confuse passenger not used to travelling on these trains but it is best effort to be helpful. Unfortunately they do not always get it right as I have experienced.

 

[Esker-pades]

At Birmingham New Street the display does say for XC trains which end of the train first class will be so those reversing trains have to say 'front of the train on arrival and rear of the train on departure' or vice versa. This may confuse passenger not used to travelling on these trains but it is best effort to be helpful. Unfortunately they do not always get it right as I have experienced.

I was speaking purely in the context of a previous post which suggested digital coach numbers meaning that coach A was always at the front (for example).

 

[Olympian]

At Birmingham New Street the display does say for XC trains which end of the train first class will be so those reversing trains have to say 'front of the train on arrival and rear of the train on departure' or vice versa. This may confuse passenger not used to travelling on these trains but it is best effort to be helpful. Unfortunately they do not always get it right as I have experienced.

I'm very used to travelling on Voyagers, and often travel first class, however Birmingham New Street is the one station that still confuses me in terms of which direction trains will arrive and depart from so I've no idea whereabouts on the platform to wait even with those descriptions. And they're often incorrect anyway.

Personally I want to see train formations described in relation to fixed points on platforms - so those that Virgin use at Preston are fine - just like in Germany, Switzerland etc. I don't care if it's numbers, letters or colours used so long as I can stand in the correct place and not have to race along the platform when the train arrives.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm very used to travelling on Voyagers, and often travel first class, however Birmingham New Street is the one station that still confuses me in terms of which direction trains will arrive and depart from so I've no idea whereabouts on the platform to wait even with those descriptions. And they're often incorrect anyway.

Personally I want to see train formations described in relation to fixed points on platforms - so those that Virgin use at Preston are fine - just like in Germany, Switzerland etc. I don't care if it's numbers, letters or colours used so long as I can stand in the correct place and not have to race along the platform when the train arrives.

Then you get the situation in France that I have been in where they put up the wrong train formation on the platform, so I have to race the length of a 16 coach sleeper in the rain complete with a lot of luggage.

 

[DavidGrain]

I'm very used to travelling on Voyagers, and often travel first class, however Birmingham New Street is the one station that still confuses me in terms of which direction trains will arrive and depart from so I've no idea whereabouts on the platform to wait even with those descriptions. And they're often incorrect anyway.

Personally I want to see train formations described in relation to fixed points on platforms - so those that Virgin use at Preston are fine - just like in Germany, Switzerland etc. I don't care if it's numbers, letters or colours used so long as I can stand in the correct place and not have to race along the platform when the train arrives.

To help you in Birmingham New Street. The XC Voyager/HST services operate a X on the map so
Trains to Derby Yorkshire and the North East will go out from the A end of the platforms
Trains to Oxford and further south will go out from the A end of the platforms
Trains to Manchester will go out from the B end of the platforms
Trains to Bristol and the South West are the problem ones as they can go out from either end but will go mainly from the B end.
A clue is likely to be whether the train is shown as platform A or B on the indicator boards.

However even this is not cast in stone as engineering or other incidents could result in the train being diverted and leaving via another route which could apply to all except the Oxford services

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Personally I want to see train formations described in relation to fixed points on platforms - so those that Virgin use at Preston are fine - just like in Germany, Switzerland etc. I don't care if it's numbers, letters or colours used so long as I can stand in the correct place and not have to race along the platform when the train arrives.

That is only worth it, if the trains actually turn up the correct way then. How often have I heard “Der Zug verkehrt heute in umgekehrter Wagenreihung” (the train is the wrong way around today) on a German platform. Or you have to digitally show these changes (with digital coach locator displays in the first place, or in apps like DB does it now:

, has English subtitles) -- edit: sorry I don’t know how to make this just a link without the video showing up immediately

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Just scrap seat reservations and be done with it. It has always baffled me why someone who pays the least (Advance) automatically gets a reservation but someone buying a 'Anytime return' has to ask for one and often can't get one.
The system is just so wrong on so many fronts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The PIS at New St is capable of showing little pretty pictures of the formation - I don't see why it would be much of a stretch to (a) ensure they are shown the right way round, and (b) to show at least the A and B ends on it, ideally something more granular.