Passenger etiquette?

[DelW]

Sometimes it's impossible to sit in your reserved seat...
A few years ago I was travelling from south east England to mid Wales on an advance ticket. As expected, I got a reservation coupon for GWR from Reading to Swansea, but unexpectedly, also a reservation coupon for ATW from Swansea up the heart of Wales line. This told me I had to sit in a specified seat in "Coach C". Not only was the train a single car 153, but I don't think I've ever seen a 3 coach train on that line other than specials or charters. The guard didn't ask to see my reservation though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did it split/join somewhere? Where portion working goes on you can get a single coach that isn't coach A.

 

[DelW]

Did it split/join somewhere? Where portion working goes on you can get a single coach that isn't coach A.

I take your point, but no, it was a single 153 unit throughout. I've never seen coach labels on that line either.

 

[Journeyman]

Just scrap seat reservations and be done with it. It has always baffled me why someone who pays the least (Advance) automatically gets a reservation but someone buying a 'Anytime return' has to ask for one and often can't get one.
The system is just so wrong on so many fronts.

Nope. Scrap seat reservations and you've lost me as a customer. I regularly do Edinburgh to London, and if I can't reserve a seat, I'll fly instead.

 

[2HAP]

years ago on a packed 2 car wessex 158 from Bristol a couple refused to give up their seats which we had reserved...

what can you do

Sit on their laps. (I weigh 18st, they'd soon shift).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The PIS at New St is capable of showing little pretty pictures of the formation - I don't see why it would be much of a stretch to (a) ensure they are shown the right way round, and (b) to show at least the A and B ends on it, ideally something more granular.

TPE's new screens at Huddersfield are pretty good for this, showing clearly the formation of the service whether 3 or 6 cars- much better than the old way which just said which end first class was at, and didn't allow for double units.

The downside is that quite often the service arrives the opposite way round to how it was displayed though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE's new screens at Huddersfield are pretty good for this, showing clearly the formation of the service whether 3 or 6 cars- much better than the old way which just said which end first class was at, and didn't allow for double units.

The downside is that quite often the service arrives the opposite way round to how it was displayed though!

To me this is a procedural issue - someone has to bother to report a wrong formation. Maybe these days a guard's handheld device should require him to log onto the train and journey (just as a bus driver does on his ticket machine), and part of that would be to record the formation actively regardless of if it's right or wrong, i.e. enter the vehicle numbers in the right order. I believe SBB do this.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To me this is a procedural issue - someone has to bother to report a wrong formation. Maybe these days a guard's handheld device should require him to log onto the train and journey (just as a bus driver does on his ticket machine), and part of that would be to record the formation actively regardless of if it's right or wrong, i.e. enter the vehicle numbers in the right order. I believe SBB do this.

On North TPE it should be easier to standardise which way units face, now that the Ordsall Chord has reduced reversals. If First class was always at the Airport/Liverpool/Piccadilly bay blocks end (so at the front when heading westbound through the core) people would eventually catch on. Double units would still be an issue, as would any units that switch (planned or otherwise) between the North and South routes at MIA.

 

[Spartacus]

There's obviously a few units every day that would switch by going via Castleford, I think 9 including ECS, and as you say that's without unplanned alterations. There's also at least one that goes to MIA via the Ordsall Chord, then goes back into Piccadilly to for a Hull service. That's almost one fifth of the whole fleet planned to finish the day facing opposite way to the one they started each day on North, without looking at other routes. You'd hope it would be easier to get the signs sorted one was or another.

 

[al78]

Just scrap seat reservations and be done with it. It has always baffled me why someone who pays the least (Advance) automatically gets a reservation but someone buying a 'Anytime return' has to ask for one and often can't get one.
The system is just so wrong on so many fronts.

It is much easier to include seat reservations with an advance ticket, because the ticket holder is restricted to a specific train, so it is no logistical effort to add a seat reservation on that particular train. With an anytime return, you have the choice of many trains, there is no way of the system knowing which one you are going to use, so it makes sense that the reservation is left up to the passenger to decide when they know what train they are catching. In addition, the price of a ticket does not include the right to a seat, so the differing costs of advance and anytime tickets is irrelevant in this context. An advance ticket holder pays less because they are sacrificing flexibility.

It wouldn't bother me if they did away with automatic seat reservations for advance ticket holders. A lot of the time, on the Virgin London to Manchester service, my ticket has a seat reservation in one of the very few seats with no window, so I would be happy to ask for a seat reservation the same way as an anytime ticket holder. It would also make it easier for me to sit close to my folding bike.

 

[Jonny]

Is it actually a requirement to have a reservation part on you though. No ticket = no travel, the reservation is only for a seat surely.

For some advance purchase tickets it is... They are marked "valid only with reservation".

 

[DanTrain]

For some advance purchase tickets it is... They are marked "valid only with reservation".

That does ring a bell now actually!

 

[bramling]

Nope. Scrap seat reservations and you've lost me as a customer. I regularly do Edinburgh to London, and if I can't reserve a seat, I'll fly instead.

And how many customers has the railway lost over the years when people have paid a lot of money for an anytime ticket and found themselves standing because the train is stuffed with cheap advance ticket holders with reservations? It wouldn’t take too much of that for people to conclude it’s simply easier to take the car next time - which also avoids other unpleasantness like the risk of having screaming kids nearby, having someone with poor personal hygiene come and sit nearby, et cetera.

 

[bramling]

On North TPE it should be easier to standardise which way units face, now that the Ordsall Chord has reduced reversals. If First class was always at the Airport/Liverpool/Piccadilly bay blocks end (so at the front when heading westbound through the core) people would eventually catch on. Double units would still be an issue, as would any units that switch (planned or otherwise) between the North and South routes at MIA.

There’s still a fair few locations where TPE trains can end up turning, for whatever reason. The simplest way to avoid this problem would have been to have a smaller first class section at both ends. IIRC the 166s were like this originally, and 365s still are. Needless to say life is never quite that simple. The sections immediately adjacent to cabs make good first class as they have less disturbance - and 185s would be ideal in that regard being non gangwayed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There’s still a fair few locations where TPE trains can end up turning, for whatever reason. The simplest way to avoid this problem would have been to have a smaller first class section at both ends. IIRC the 166s were like this originally, and 365s still are. Needless to say life is never quite that simple. The sections immediately adjacent to cabs make good first class as they have less disturbance - and 185s would be ideal in that regard being non gangwayed.

I didn't say they won't get turned, I said they're less likely to get turned!
Anyway the downside with putting first behind both cabs (besides needing to shift the accessible loo) is that TPE's "improved" first class offering would be harder to provide if hosts are having to move from end to end even on single units. Better would be to only have one end as a smaller first class section and thus providing more useful capacity for "real people", or to do away with first class entirely on such overcrowded units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't say they won't get turned, I said they're less likely to get turned!
Anyway the downside with putting first behind both cabs (besides needing to shift the accessible loo) is that TPE's "improved" first class offering would be harder to provide if hosts are having to move from end to end even on single units. Better would be to only have one end as a smaller first class section and thus providing more useful capacity for "real people", or to do away with first class entirely on such overcrowded units.

A third option in a 3-car unit would have been to put it right in the middle of the middle coach, with the accessible bog and wheelchair spaces at one end of that coach. Then it genuinely would barely matter.

But the real answer is not to be so lazy and incompetent, and to have a proper system in place for showing the actual formation on the PIS, which some other TOCs and overseas railways manage easy enough. So really, it's just down to TPE being a lazy and incompetent TOC that can't be bothered to do it properly.

 

[Spartacus]

Well they did (sometimes) have it with the old screens, I wonder if it's some sort of lack of compatibility with 185s that will be sorted with the new stock.

 

[TRAX]

Great, but how would the system know if the seat has been taken?
Unless it just displays "available" anyway?

A weight detector on the seat. Just like cars which tell you to attach your seatbelt only if the seat is taken.
But again that doesn’t detect who is actually sitting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A weight detector on the seat. Just like cars which tell you to attach your seatbelt only if the seat is taken.
But again that doesn’t detect who is actually sitting.

Until it breaks. I get the feeling of some of these things being technology for technology's sake...

 

[sefton]

Sit on their laps. (I weigh 18st, they'd soon shift).

So your answer is to assault them? Rather odd.

 

[K.o.R]

Virgin still do it at many of their stations (though by number rather than coach numbers/letters). And announce it "First Class in Zones 1 to 4, Standard Class in Zones 5 to 11" or similar. There are also posters I believe which will tell you where to stand for specific coaches.

Orange Zone, Gold Zone, Blue Zone, Purple Zone, wasn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Orange Zone, Gold Zone, Blue Zone, Purple Zone, wasn't it?

It was indeed. That sort of died the death when VT, early in their tenure, made a right mess of it as a means of introducing a "third class".

 

[al78]

And how many customers has the railway lost over the years when people have paid a lot of money for an anytime ticket and found themselves standing because the train is stuffed with cheap advance ticket holders with reservations? It wouldn’t take too much of that for people to conclude it’s simply easier to take the car next time - which also avoids other unpleasantness like the risk of having screaming kids nearby, having someone with poor personal hygiene come and sit nearby, et cetera.

How would anyone know that the train was stuffed with advance ticket holders, rather than standard ticket holders? If it really was stuffed with advance ticket holders, that means there are too many advance tickets available. Does it even matter what tickets people have anyway? If the train is standing room only then you have to stand, deal with it or use an alternative mode of transport. I would consider it infinitesimally unlikely that anyone would stop using a train specifically because of the number of advance ticket holders taking up seats. There are plenty of better reasons to stop using the train out of frustration and drive instead. Screaming kids and poor personal hygiene are annoyances that come with traveling by train, full stop, you have to accept things like that occasionally if you are going to use public transport regularly.

 

[al78]

So your answer is to assault them? Rather odd.

Potentially dangerous, if the person who is sat on takes great offense at being sat on and sucker-punches the perpetrator in the face. Being 18 stone doesn't make you a good street fighter, and doesn't make you immune from getting your face smashed in.

 

[TRAX]

Until it breaks. I get the feeling of some of these things being technology for technology's sake...

Why would a system as simple as that (a sort of scale in fact) break (easily) ? It doesn't happen on cars, and car seats aren't particularly well looked after.

 

[atraindriver]

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[xotGD]

Not knowing which way round TPE sets are is a total pain. Having to peer along the tracks looking for a little patch of yellow before knowing which way to dash is ridiculous, when all it takes is an announcement saying 'Coach A at the front' or whatever. I'm always happier when I have a seat reservation in Coach B and can just stand in the middle of the platform (unless a 6-car set rolls in!).

 

[6Gman]

Orange Zone, Gold Zone, Blue Zone, Purple Zone, wasn't it?

No. That was an old scheme; I'm referring to the current system.

 

[Bodiddly]

As the title of this thread is passenger etiquette, I would just like to say a big thank you to the guy who sat in front of me on a train recently and proceeded to eat the most foul smelling food I've ever had the displeasure to inhale. I would also like to thank him for forcing me not just to change seats but to change carriage.
Never mind etiquette, some people couldn't give a damn about others.

 

[al78]

As the title of this thread is passenger etiquette, I would just like to say a big thank you to the guy who sat in front of me on a train recently and proceeded to eat the most foul smelling food I've ever had the displeasure to inhale. I would also like to thank him for forcing me not just to change seats but to change carriage.
Never mind etiquette, some people couldn't give a damn about others.

That might have been ignorance rather than not caring. If I am eating Indian food in a restaraunt, I don't notice the smell being very potent, but someone who has never been near Indian food before may find the smell (initially) overpowering.

I changed carriage once due to a very loud screechy child (about 4 or 5 years old), loud and piercing enough to give me a headache. I could still hear the child halfway along the adjacent carriage.