Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[richw]

(Split from Northern Rail letter asking me why I failed to pay a fare posted by lilykitten )

Are there any notices advising that if no ticket facilities are available at start or on train you must purchase at end station?

If not publicly available through posters or announcements that you should pay on exit, then surely no grounds to expect a passenger to be charged any additional penalties?

This information has to be available by notifications on train or stations to be enforced

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If not publically available through posters or announcements that you should pay on exit, then surely no grounds to expect a passenger to be fined any additional penaltys?

I wish you were correct! It seems to make common sense, doesn't it?

Sadly, that's not the view of Railway Operators. In particular, Northern Rail rely very heavily on human checks at Manchester looking for passengers who've travelled in from smaller stations (staffed or unstaffed). They take the view "5. 3. If any person—.
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;" applies to all their passengers who don't buy at the origin, who don't buy on-board and who walk past the ticket window at the destination without buying. In those cases that reach the Magistrates Courts, then the Magistrates don't have much choice in prosecuting the passenger as this precise situation is captured in Case Law.

Posters and publicity (or the lack of it) just doesn't come into it.
Personally, I think northern could and should do more to make passengers aware of their obligations, though frankly they are riddled with so many fare dodgers and persistent evaders who wouldn't pay a bit of attention to any official notice that they put all of their resources into trying to trap as many of those people as possible - and that's perhaps how the OP got caught up in all this.

 

[richw]

I wish you were correct! It seems to make common sence, doesn't it?

Sadly, that's not the view of Railway Operators. In particular, Northern Rail rely very heavily on human checks at Manchester looking for passengers who've travelled in from smaller stations (staffed or unstaffed). They take the view "5. 3. If any person—.
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;" applies to all their passengers who don't buy at the origin, who don't buy on-board and who walk past the ticket window at the destination without buying. In those cases that reach the Magistrates Courts, then the Magistrates don't have much choice in prosecuting the passenger as this precise situation is captured in Case Law.

This information needs to be freely available to the passengers without the need to trawl the internet surely to be enforceable? Also should the passenger have a bus connection to make at the station, stopping to buy a ticket could miss this connection, does this apply? What is deemed an acceptable transfer time between rail and bus connection? Why should a passenger miss a bus/ meeting, if the passenger has been at the origin in time to buy a ticket but office is closed, and no option on train to buy? Could a reference be issued to pay within a set time to avoid penalty? perhaps a reference to phone and pay over the phone?

 

[island]

This information needs to be freely available to the passengers without the need to trawl the internet surely to be enforceable?

No it doesn't, same way as the law saying you're not allowed punch someone, or swear in a public place where it is likely to cause distress to someone else, and most other laws.

 

[exile]

This information needs to be freely available to the passengers without the need to trawl the internet surely to be enforceable? Also should the passenger have a bus connection to make at the station, stopping to buy a ticket could miss this connection, does this apply? What is deemed an acceptable transfer time between rail and bus connection? Why should a passenger miss a bus/ meeting, if the passenger has been at the origin in time to buy a ticket but office is closed, and no option on train to buy? Could a reference be issued to pay within a set time to avoid penalty? perhaps a reference to phone and pay over the phone?

The classic case is the conductor with the non-functioning ticket machine, which does happen. This can result in 50-100 people queuing up at the excess fare window. However my route is notorious for passengers walking past open ticket offices and getting on the train.

 

[snail]

They take the view "5. 3. If any person—.
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;" applies to all their passengers who don't buy at the origin, who don't buy on-board and who walk past the ticket window at the destination without buying.

That's why I asked the question of the OP earlier: there are several exits at Manchester Piccadilly, only one of which would involve walking past the ticket office. If there was a specific Excess Fare window, that would be a much clearer indication to passengers.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know this is slightly OT, but I cannot believe people are suggesting that passenger obligations need to be made abundantly clear.

If you receive a service, you pay for it! It is not OK to board a train, travel, not be asked to pay, then attempt to leave the railway without paying. Maybe it's because I'm the sort of person who gives back the extra 10p change I was wrongly given at Euston WHSmith...

Back on topic, I would agree that Dave's advice is sound as usual. Some contrition in your letter might be appropriate, as well as an apology. It is helpful that you have been so honest, so thanks for that. It does help you get the best advice!

 

[nedchester]

I know this is slightly OT, but I cannot believe people are suggesting that passenger obligations need to be made abundantly clear.

I do. I suspect it would not occur to the vast majority of people that they should buy a ticket at the ticket office if they hadn't been asked to pay for their fare en route, at the destination etc.

It might also occur to many that they might not be able to buy a ticket from where they came from at the destination station.

Have to say that this form of entrapment is slightly underhand (yes I know not paying for your ticket can also be described as such) as if staff checked tickets properly, either on train or at the destination, then this situation would not happen.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

There are enough posters around telling passengers they face a criminal record for travelling without a ticket, it should therefore not beyond the wit of the TOC's to add on them, something on the lines of:-

" If you have not been able to purchase a ticket at your departure station or on the train, you may (must?) purchase one at your destination where possible"

 

[AlterEgo]

I've created this thread for a discussion that threatened to engulf an advice thread.

Essentially, this thread is to discuss whether it is fair and equitable to MG11 a passenger (report for prosecution) for failing to buy a ticket for their journey. The situation is a passenger boarding at an unstaffed station, travelling without seeing the guard, alighting at a staffed station and walking past an open booking office.

In this case I believe it is just about fair that prosecution might be a consequence. I do not want to enter a legal discussion (for IANAL) about torts, intent, and so forth. However, this type of fare evasion, while not as serious as forged tickets, is still fare evasion. It is the same as theft by finding, or making off without payment (in a moral sense, not a legal sense).

I do. I suspect it would not occur to the vast majority of people that they should buy a ticket at the ticket office if they hadn't been asked to pay for their fare en route, at the destination etc.

It might also occur to many that they might not be able to buy a ticket from where they came from at the destination station.

Have to say that this form of entrapment is slightly underhand (yes I know not paying for your ticket can also be described as such) as if staff checked tickets properly, either on train or at the destination, then this situation would not happen.

I just don't see why it doesn't occur to people to pay the fare. If I eat a meal at a restaurant, order the bill and it never arrives, I don't just walk out!

Is paying the fare required by law really that hard?

 

[snail]

I know this is slightly OT, but I cannot believe people are suggesting that passenger obligations need to be made abundantly clear.

If you receive a service, you pay for it! It is not OK to board a train, travel, not be asked to pay, then attempt to leave the railway without paying.

I agree with you, but the circumstances outlined by lilykitten may not have been an entirely deliberate act. It's one thing passing 'a ticket window' or RPI check where you could stop and pay your fare, something different to seek out a busy ticket office at a mainline terminus just to hand over £1.85.

 

[Mike395]

I agree - not just on legal but on moral grounds. If I don't buy a ticket before travel, I'm pushing up the ticket prices of everyone else, and that's unfair on them.

Take last night for example. I travelled back from Croydon to Bedford in the early evening, and for whatever reason, the barriers at Croydon were open. (The barriers at Bedford are always open now after about 7-8pm, which I'm sure never used to be the case, but that's for a different thread!)

FCC is DOO, and the chances of seeing an RPI are probably in the region of 1%. Therefore I could be reasonably confident I would have got away without buying a ticket.

However, if I hadn't bought a ticket, I would have been depriving the railways of much needed funds, and ultimately (as ORCATS for this journey would presumably be given in part to Southern and TfL as well as FCC) contributed to pushing up prices for about half the TOCs in the London commuter belt. How is that fair?

Therefore, of course it is understandable that a MG11 is issued for attempting to walk out of a station without paying - and it is in the public interest that this happens!

 

[HugePilchard]

I hope I don't drag this too far off topic, but I was wondering something along the same lines. So, purely hypothetically, let's say that I get off at a gated station having failed to buy a ticket at my starting station (unmanned, no ticket machine) or on the train (train packed, guard could barely move). We'll go for Darlington, because that's the one that I'm most familiar with.

Now, at Darlington, the excess fares window is out of service - from memory, it may even have a board permanently over the inside of it. I don't recall ever seeing the gate staff having ticket machines, so there's no way to buy a ticket before leaving the platform. What would the gate staff's normal approach to this be?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . purely hypothetically, let's say that I get off at a gated station having failed to buy a ticket . . . .

. . . . What would the gate staff's normal approach to this be?

The crucial distinction is the possibility of buying a ticket in contrast to failing to pay where there is an opportunity to pay.

The Regulations refer to "intent to avoid payment" and that requires an opportunity to pay. No opportunity = no evasion.

. . . . discuss whether it is fair and equitable to MG11 a passenger (report for prosecution) for failing to buy a ticket for their journey.
. . . . . . If I eat a meal at a restaurant, order the bill and it never arrives, I don't just walk out!

Is paying the fare required by law really that hard?

No, its very simple. And I wouldn't leave a restaurant without paying either.
But many people do 'try it on' every day; some regular and experienced fare dodgers refer to rail travel as 'free transport'. And the more loop-holes there are for people to travel without paying and remaining undetected, then there more temptation there is for others to seek to avoid payment too.

This is at the knub of the dilema - what is 'fair and equitable' for a stranger unsure where and when they are expected to pay is hard to reconcile with strategies for managing the regular fare dodger who knows many little tricks to avoid capture.

Nevertheless, I think that those operators with many unstaffed stations could do more to publicise the procedure which they expect from passengers. Whether that be posters at the boarding stations, signs at the destination stations and announcements on-board would perhaps depend on specific circumstances, but more could be done to assist the more willing payers avoid unexpected 'interviews'.

 

[nedchester]

I agree - not just on legal but on moral grounds. If I don't buy a ticket before travel, I'm pushing up the ticket prices of everyone else, and that's unfair on them.

Take last night for example. I travelled back from Croydon to Bedford in the early evening, and for whatever reason, the barriers at Croydon were open. (The barriers at Bedford are always open now after about 7-8pm, which I'm sure never used to be the case, but that's for a different thread!)

FCC is DOO, and the chances of seeing an RPI are probably in the region of 1%. Therefore I could be reasonably confident I would have got away without buying a ticket.

However, if I hadn't bought a ticket, I would have been depriving the railways of much needed funds, and ultimately (as ORCATS for this journey would presumably be given in part to Southern and TfL as well as FCC) contributed to pushing up prices for about half the TOCs in the London commuter belt. How is that fair?

Therefore, of course it is understandable that a MG11 is issued for attempting to walk out of a station without paying - and it is in the public interest that this happens!

The 'we're putting prices up because of fare evaders' is a bit of a smokescreen IMHO.

However, I am merely saying that many people (rightly or wrongly) will be of the opinion that if they haven't been asked for a ticket or checked for a ticket that it is the railways fault for being so lax. To then sit outside the railway station AFTER they have have passed the ticket office waiting to pounce on them is close to entrapment. Why could they not have been on the barrier BEFORE the ticket office? If the passenger then comes up with some cock and bull story and tries to evade the fare then fine prosecute them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Are there any notices advising that if no ticket facilities are available at start or on train you must purchase at end station?

If not publicly available through posters or announcements that you should pay on exit, then surely no grounds to expect a passenger to be charged any additional penalties?

This information has to be available by notifications on train or stations to be enforced

The NRCoC, which is available to the public upon request or online from the National Rail website, states that where there are not facilities to purchase a ticket, you must pay the fare [that you would have paid at the start of your journey] "as soon as is reasonably practicable".

In this case the authority to travel is in the passengers charter, which is available to the public upon request, (as there was apparently no ticket office at the origin station) and first reasonably practical place to pay the fare apparently was the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly station.

 

[AlterEgo]

The 'we're putting prices up because of fare evaders' is a bit of a smokescreen IMHO.

However, I am merely saying that many people (rightly or wrongly) will be of the opinion that if they haven't been asked for a ticket or checked for a ticket that it is the railways fault for being so lax. To then sit outside the railway station AFTER they have have passed the ticket office waiting to pounce on them is close to entrapment. Why could they not have been on the barrier BEFORE the ticket office? If the passenger then comes up with some cock and bull story and tries to evade the fare then fine prosecute them.

It is not entrapment.

Entrapment is where someone in an official capacity incites a person to commit an offence, where ordinarily the person would not be inclined to commit that offence. Examples enclude trap cars which are used in the US to lure car theives.

Waiting for someone to evade a fare is not entrapment - it is detecting crime. Are police travelling around in unmarked cars guilty of entrapment? Nope.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are enough posters around telling passengers they face a criminal record for travelling without a ticket, it should therefore not beyond the wit of the TOC's to add on them, something on the lines of:-

" If you have not been able to purchase a ticket at your departure station or on the train, you may (must?) purchase one at your destination where possible"

People should pay the fare because it's the correct, legal and moral thing to do!

I can just imagine big posters saying "You Need To Pay To Use The Train - If It Didn't Occur To You Yet".

 

[lemonic]

This situation has never happened to me personally, but before I joined the forum, I would have never expected to have to buy a ticket at the ticket office of my destination station if I had no opportunity to do so beforehand, for fear of prosecution. I would never intentionally fare evade, but I bet if a survey of rail travellers was done, a relatively large percentage wouldn't know of this requirement.

 

[FGWman]

Its no different to leaving a supermarket walking past the tills without paying. You have used a service and should at least make some attempt to pay for it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Its no different to leaving a supermarket walking past the tills without paying. You have used a service and should at least make some attempt to pay for it.

Well, it is more like going to the tills, seeing nobody there manning them, and just walking out.

Still wrong though.

I just don't reconcile with people's assumptions that you can travel for free.

 

[FGWman]

Well, it is more like going to the tills, seeing nobody there manning them, and just walking out.

Still wrong though.

I just don't reconcile with people's assumptions that you can travel for free.

No because in the case we are talking about the ticket office was open at the destination station.

 

[WestCoast]

I have sympathy for lilykitten's situation, I think rail ticketing in the Greater Manchester area is a joke quite frankly. Its an urban area with very limited ticket purchasing opportunities at certain locations. The queues to pay at Piccadilly can be absolutely horrendous with ticket inspectors who lack knowledge. I accept that the OP should have used the ticket office upon arrival, but that could have taken a considerable amount of time. I personally think Northern should be making it easier to pay instead, the conductors do try to collect all fares most of the time but it can be an impossible task with G4S not always present at Piccadilly to meet trains!!

 

[radamfi]

The difference with a shop is that if you see a long queue you can choose not to buy and walk out of the shop. With a train you have already used the service when you arrive at your destination. Queueing to buy a ticket at the destination is grossly inconvenient and likely to put people off rail travel. It must be borne in mind that the whole point of trains is to remove cars from the road. So every effort must be made to avoid the need of buying tickets at the destination. That means TVMs at all stations where queues exist.

Does queueing at the destination exist elsewhere in Europe? I don't think I've seen it anywhere else but Britain.

 

[WestCoast]

Does queueing at the destination exist elsewhere in Europe? I don't think I've seen it anywhere else but Britain.

Not really because other countries tend to offer more chances to hand over the cash before it has got to that point, examples being ticket machines at the vast majority of stations and even onboard trains.

 

[Yew]

I'm struggling to work out how the he'll this is like walking past supermarket tills without paying? How many normals know about what an excess fare office is, it would be like walking past the customer service desk (excess fares office). To go to the tills (main ticket office)

If the guard can't get all along the train, then surely he could put an announcement telling people to go to the excess fares office? As most wouldn't know what the protocol is otherwise


Of course. In thenoriginal threads case, having an information/times booth that could be confused confused as a ticket office, but then doesn't sell tickets, could leave pax believing that there is no opportunity to buy at the station, and they need to ask the gateline staff what to do, in turn walking past the rocket office

 

[DarloRich]

I hope I don't drag this too far off topic, but I was wondering something along the same lines. So, purely hypothetically, let's say that I get off at a gated station having failed to buy a ticket at my starting station (unmanned, no ticket machine) or on the train (train packed, guard could barely move). We'll go for Darlington, because that's the one that I'm most familiar with.

Now, at Darlington, the excess fares window is out of service - from memory, it may even have a board permanently over the inside of it. I don't recall ever seeing the gate staff having ticket machines, so there's no way to buy a ticket before leaving the platform. What would the gate staff's normal approach to this be?

I know Darlo quite well to! They either have a portable ticket machine at the gate, let you through to use the automated machine ( if they trust you) or escort you to the ticket office (if you look shifty)

HOWEVER, that doesnt stop someone from, say York ( or London as i have got from Kings Cross to Darlo several times with no ticket checks!) saying they have come form North Road or Dinsdale.

 

[Greenback]

With large stations now resembling shopping malls, it's increasingly difficult to recognise the ticket office. However, it is reasonable to expect someone to make an effort to pay for their journey.

I expect there will be a lot more of this in future, with ticket offices closing or being reduced in hours. There will be a lot more work for on train staff to do, and at main stations where the ticket office stays open.

 

[Zoe]

With large stations now resembling shopping malls, it's increasingly difficult to recognise the ticket office. However, it is reasonable to expect someone to make an effort to pay for their journey.

I expect there will be a lot more of this in future, with ticket offices closing or being reduced in hours. There will be a lot more work for on train staff to do, and at main stations where the ticket office stays open.

I expect more stations in the future will have barriers installed so it will be a bit difficult to board a train without a ticket.

 

[pemma]

The NRCoC, which is available to the public upon request or online from the National Rail website, states that where there are not facilities to purchase a ticket, you must pay the fare [that you would have paid at the start of your journey] "as soon as is reasonably practicable".

In this case the authority to travel is in the passengers charter, which is available to the public upon request, (as there was apparently no ticket office at the origin station) and first reasonably practical place to pay the fare apparently was the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly station.

Isn't that open to interpretation though?

Say, the train was due to arrive at 11:30 but arrives at 11:45 and you need to be somewhere 15 minutes walk from the station at 12:00. You could claim it isn't practical to queue for 5-10 minutes at Piccadilly when you are already late.

If you did Mobberley-Delamere (both unstaffed) and weren't given the opportunity to buy on board where are you supposed to send your fare to? Northern don't publicise an address to put uncollected fares to, or have a secure online payment system for collecting such fares.

 

[nedchester]

It is not entrapment.

Entrapment is where someone in an official capacity incites a person to commit an offence, where ordinarily the person would not be inclined to commit that offence. Examples enclude trap cars which are used in the US to lure car theives.

Waiting for someone to evade a fare is not entrapment - it is detecting crime. Are police travelling around in unmarked cars guilty of entrapment? Nope.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry but why are Northern (and other companies) deliberately putting RPIs after the ticket office rather than before? It seems to me they WANT to trap people? It's just as easy to have them gripping before the ticket office instead of after.