Passenger power supply for PC's and mobiles.

[bassmike]

eeeuuuuhhh??????????

 

[rf_ioliver]

That's a major exaggeration.

OK, yes I admit a bit of an exaggeration, but a potentially worn out/broken Li battery is IMHO still a danger, and honestly, if you've run a battery down to that state the OP then it really is time to dispose of it

 

[Llanigraham]

Maybe one engine should be left ticking over to provide power!

ERR??
These are electric trains. They don't have engines

 

[edwin_m]

ERR??
These are electric trains. They don't have engines

To be pedantic some of them do, including LNER's, but I don't think it's environmentally or economically sound to have one of them "ticking over" just to benefit the 1% of device users that don't have a working battery. The changeover of the auxiliary supplies from overhead line to on-board diesel probably involves a short interruption in any case.

 

[Dave44]

As has been said, if an uninterrupted power supply is that important to you, the onus is on you to get your laptop fixed. I don't think you should expect the railway to offer that as a service, the supply provided is intended to be for charging/keeping topped up devices with functioning batteries, not to provide a service for those who can't be bothered to keep their devices in good working order.

The railways are there to supply what their customers need. If it's a customer power supply then it should stay on and not assume that people are using battery equipment. Limited current is fine for low power equipment. Irritating on off supplies are useless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railways are there to supply what their customers need. If it's a customer power supply then it should stay on and not assume that people are using battery equipment

The thing is, near enough everybody is. A laptop with no working battery is of very little utility other than as a pseudo-desktop left at home. Almost everyone will replace their laptop battery (or laptop) if it doesn't charge at all, unless, as I said, they're just left at home and used as a desktop. There is no point spending thousands of pounds catering for 0.00001% of passengers (or something).

 

[Dave44]

To be pedantic some of them do, including LNER's, but I don't think it's environmentally or economically sound to have one of them "ticking over" just to benefit the 1% of device users that don't have a working battery. The changeover of the auxiliary supplies from overhead line to on-board diesel probably involves a short interruption in any case.

Seems to be affecting those with batteries that work as well!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to be affecting those with batteries that work as well!!!

How does losing power for a brief second affect a laptop with a working battery?

 

[Dave44]

The thing is, near enough everybody is. A laptop with no working battery is of very little utility other than as a pseudo-desktop left at home. Almost everyone will replace their laptop battery (or laptop) if it doesn't charge at all, unless, as I said, they're just left at home and used as a desktop. There is no point spending thousands of pounds catering for 0.00001% of passengers (or something).

Can we focus on Azuma power supplies please.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can we focus on Azuma power supplies please.

It's about Azuma power supplies. I'm contending that the correct decision was made about them (and the supply on every single other EMU on the railway) because almost nobody uses a laptop with no working battery away from the home. Even when they've degraded to the point that there's only 10 minutes life left in them they usually still work as a UPS for this sort of scenario - they do sometimes fail outright, but rarely.

 

[Energy]

TOCs also only want you to plug in laptops and mobile phones into the sockets, not say hairdryers or whatever. These slight cutouts of power will not affect who the TOC intend to use the power sockets and I doubt many people would travel without a working battery in their laptop.

 

[Dave44]

How does losing power for a brief second affect a laptop with a working battery?

Please look back over the comments already posted.

 

[Energy]

Please look back over the comments already posted.

Looked over this thread, you haven't said how it affects laptops with a working battery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please look back over the comments already posted.

I've just read back through the thread and cannot see any problems being described with regard to the use of a laptop with a working battery.

There are the issues with the coffee machine, but rather than providing a UPS for the whole train one could be provided just for that. The HVAC briefly stopping has no effect on anything other than giving your ears a brief respite from the racket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is of course now harder to replace batteries in many devices because they are not easily removable: in some cases it's a screwdriver job, and although not difficult for those with basic skills is nevertheless beyond many people. In other cases it's so difficult, and involves melting glue, that most people wouldn't attempt it, or would break the device if they tried.

There are loads of repair shops that will do it - if you have electronics skills it's not hard, so the price is generally low.

 

[Dave44]

Thank you folks for your many comments. I will get my battery management fault repaired. All I'm saying is that it seemed to me to be a deliberate policy of LNER on their new Azuma trains to provide an on/off power supply. I only noticed it because of my temporary battery problem and I wondered why it was happening. It does not occur on the older trains on the East Coast line. I agree that items such as hair dryers should not be plugged in as they blow the fuse, also annoying as it cannot be reset en route. You certainly gave me a good internet forum style hammering on my battery problem but I still think that the Azuma with all its modern magic should provide a stable power supply for passengers same as the old ones still do. Look at what we have to pay to travel!! The customer is always right!!

 

[Energy]

but I still think that the Azuma with all its modern magic should provide a stable power supply for passengers same as the old ones still do.

Where did the 225s get their power for plug sockets if they weren't affected by this? The 125s wouldn't as their's came of the diesel engine.

 

[Llanigraham]

The railways are there to supply what their customers need. If it's a customer power supply then it should stay on and not assume that people are using battery equipment. Limited current is fine for low power equipment. Irritating on off supplies are useless.

The railway is there to provide a method of transport between places, and the provision of power is a adjunct to that. I'd like it provide me with a free copy of my magazine and a pint of Snowdonia Cwrw Eryri, but I am realistic enough to accept that like a continuous power supply that it isn't going to happen.

 

[Dave44]

OK, yes I admit a bit of an exaggeration, but a potentially worn out/broken Li battery is IMHO still a danger, and honestly, if you've run a battery down to that state the OP then it really is time to dispose of it

Nothing wrong with my battery. The battery management circuit has failed in the PC. The PC powers up normally but the battery does not charge so sits there flat. Quite safe in my judgement.

 

[Dave44]

Where did the 225s get their power for plug sockets if they weren't affected by this? The 125s wouldn't as their's came of the diesel engine.

Good point. I have not noticed a power outage on the 225s. Certainly not repeatedly every few minutes like the Azuma.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good point. I have not noticed a power outage on the 225s. Certainly not repeatedly every few minutes like the Azuma.

Do they perhaps feed via a motor-alternator set rather than solid state electronics, meaning you would just get a reduction in voltage and frequency but it wouldn't spin down enough to stop the feed entirely? Most laptop power supplies are universal and can handle anything between 110 and 250VAC and aren't overly bothered about frequency.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The customer is always right!!

Not always. I had a customer complain we hadn't paid him the £80k he had asked to be transferred from his account. We checked and we had. Except he had given a wrong bank account number on the form. A week later the bank it was sent to returned it unpaid, and we spent several hours of clerical time finding the amount (it wasn't identified as a returned amount, just an incoming payment) and matching it to his account. Explained all this to him, including his error was the cause. He then asked for interest for late payment. I replied politely telling him I wasn't going to pay interest and he was lucky we didn't deduct the £200 it cost us to deal with his mistake. Didn't hear from him again.

So no, the customer is not always right. In a more general vein, a business has a proposition, and if the customer demands something outside that proposition, they are not right. There is just a mismatch, and an expectation that the business feels is not important or makes sense to offer. I might request that GWR picks me up by limousine and take me to the station for each journey with them, because I had it once with a business class airline seat and quite liked it. I wouldn't be right. In the same way, rail operators provide a facility for those who want to keep their batteries topped up, not for those who want an uninterrupted power supply for a device with a non-functioning battery. As a vanishingly small % of people require that enhanced service, it's a reasonable level of service provision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"The customer's interests are paramount", I find a better way of putting it. In this case, a UPS would cost money, and more passengers would benefit from lower fares, and taxpayers from lower taxes for subsidy, than the number of people who use laptops without a battery that can even provide 30 seconds of power on trains, which must be a very, very small number.

 

[Dave44]

Not always. I had a customer complain we hadn't paid him the £80k he had asked to be transferred from his account. We checked and we had. Except he had given a wrong bank account number on the form. A week later the bank it was sent to returned it unpaid, and we spent several hours of clerical time finding the amount (it wasn't identified as a returned amount, just an incoming payment) and matching it to his account. Explained all this to him, including his error was the cause. He then asked for interest for late payment. I replied politely telling him I wasn't going to pay interest and he was lucky we didn't deduct the £200 it cost us to deal with his mistake. Didn't hear from him again.

So no, the customer is not always right. In a more general vein, a business has a proposition, and if the customer demands something outside that proposition, they are not right. There is just a mismatch, and an expectation that the business feels is not important or makes sense to offer. I might request that GWR picks me up by limousine and take me to the station for each journey with them, because I had it once with a business class airline seat and quite liked it. I wouldn't be right. In the same way, rail operators provide a facility for those who want to keep their batteries topped up, not for those who want an uninterrupted power supply for a device with a non-functioning battery. As a vanishingly small % of people require that enhanced service, it's a reasonable level of service provision.

Sorry I rattled your cage Brissle Girl. Of course you are perfectly correct about the expression "customer is always right". It's used just to try to give an advantage to the customer and I used it with tongue in cheek to make a point. Again I emphasize that I only noticed the power supply thing by accident and wondered why is the Azuma different, and for the worse, compared with the old 225 trains. My battery is fine and totally irrelevant to my question about the Azuma design and LNER policy.

 

[edwin_m]

TOCs also only want you to plug in laptops and mobile phones into the sockets, not say hairdryers or whatever. These slight cutouts of power will not affect who the TOC intend to use the power sockets and I doubt many people would travel without a working battery in their laptop.

The sockets usually have a notice that says this. A reasonable observer would consider that to be laptops and mobile phones in working order, and most people would consider one that didn't charge its battery not to be. If the problem was in, say, the keyboard circuits would a passenger expect the TOC to loan them a spare keyboard?

Hence it's reasonable to expect that the TOC has done enough if they provide a supply that might interrupt for a few seconds (as I've noticed happens on several other types of electric train). In any case I'm sure there's some exclusion that prevents anyone asking for a refund if their supply interrupts or even is completely dead (quite common).

 

[Dave44]

The sockets usually have a notice that says this. A reasonable observer would consider that to be laptops and mobile phones in working order, and most people would consider one that didn't charge its battery not to be. If the problem was in, say, the keyboard circuits would a passenger expect the TOC to loan them a spare keyboard?

Hence it's reasonable to expect that the TOC has done enough if they provide a supply that might interrupt for a few seconds (as I've noticed happens on several other types of electric train). In any case I'm sure there's some exclusion that prevents anyone asking for a refund if their supply interrupts or even is completely dead (quite common).

Thank you for your comment edwin_m. So you are a spokesman for the TOC then. My PC is totally irrelevant to my question. It is only the means by which I discovered this irritating difficulty. Why is the Azuma designed and built to a lower spec than the 225 in this regard. As I mentioned earlier, I am an electronics design engineer and if I was designing or providing a power supply for a client I would think shame to hand over one that switches off every few minutes uncontrollably. Perhaps the TOC should publish a spec on it so we all know what to expect. Anyway, the forum has given me the answer now thanks. It's probably due to neutral sections which I did not previously know about although the difference between the Azuma and the 225 is still a mystery. I do know exactly what's wrong with my PC, how to repair it and where to get spares. And it is quite safe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's indeed the case that Mk4s use motor alternators, it's not deliberate, but a side-effect of how power gets to the Mk4 coach vs. the 80x. I can't find a definitive answer on this, though.

 

[Dave44]

The thing is, near enough everybody is. A laptop with no working battery is of very little utility other than as a pseudo-desktop left at home. Almost everyone will replace their laptop battery (or laptop) if it doesn't charge at all, unless, as I said, they're just left at home and used as a desktop. There is no point spending thousands of pounds catering for 0.00001% of passengers (or something).

As you insist on deviating from my question. A Laptop with no battery is fully portable, a desktop in only transportable. So the laptop is considerably more convenient even with a flat battery because the charging control circuit doesn't work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you insist on deviating from my question. A Laptop with no battery is fully portable, a desktop in only transportable. So the laptop is considerably more convenient even with a flat battery because the charging control circuit doesn't work.

I wasn't aware you were a moderator; my reply is totally commensurate with the subject line!

Yes, clearly it's easier to carry around a laptop with failed battery/charging circuit than a full-sized tower PC, but the point is almost nobody actually does and therefore it does not make financial sense to provide for such people.

 

[mmh]

Looked over this thread, you haven't said how it affects laptops with a working battery.

It affects those which automatically adjust the screen brightness when switching to/from mains, which is a lot if not most of them.