Passenger Rights When Travelling On Invalid Ticket?

Status
Not open for further replies.

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,893
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
If a passenger is travelling off route with invalid tickets (e.g. Ticket held Glasgow to Livingston but travelling on an E&G service via Falkirk to connect at Haymarket with a Livingston train) what rights do they have for onward travel if they miss the last connection?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,864
I do not believe there is any as they have no valid tickets therefore no contract.

Obviously this is separate to the industry's duty of care towards vulnerable people.
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,764
Location
Essex
The contract is invalid because the ticket is invalid, so the train company have no responsibilities towards the passenger. Note also that no *contractual* duty of care will apply.
 

sonic2009

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2010
Messages
4,169
Location
Moulton nr Winsford
But what if passenger books a ticket via Haymarket with a valid itinerary?

Which both London Midland and National Rail will offer with the £8.50 Anytime Day Single to Livingston North from Glasgow Queen Street via Haymarket?
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,864
If the passenger bought the ticket online with an itinerary and stuck to his itinerary exactly, then this becomes a very different question in my opinion.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
If a passenger is travelling off route with invalid tickets (e.g. Ticket held Glasgow to Livingston but travelling on an E&G service via Falkirk to connect at Haymarket with a Livingston train) what rights do they have for onward travel if they miss the last connection?

I'm not so sure I would be as quick to dismiss as other members.

This passenger has _a_ ticket. Presumably the passenger will excess this (perhaps with this being late at night and ticket offices being closed, the first opportunity will be on board this train) so I suppose your question is what happens if the train breaks down before the guard gets to them?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,829
Location
Yorkshire
But what if passenger books a ticket via Haymarket with a valid itinerary?

Which both London Midland and National Rail will offer with the £8.50 Anytime Day Single to Livingston North from Glasgow Queen Street via Haymarket?
Then that could go in a new thread, which could be titled "Passenger Rights When Travelling On Valid Ticket?" , though I don't think it is necessary, as the rights are set out in the NRCoC, and is pretty obvious.
I'm not so sure I would be as quick to dismiss as other members.

This passenger has _a_ ticket. Presumably the passenger will excess this (perhaps with this being late at night and ticket offices being closed, the first opportunity will be on board this train) so I suppose your question is what happens if the train breaks down before the guard gets to them?
I got the impression from the opening post that the passenger was being shown discretion in being allowed to use the ticket via an invalid route, and the question was relating to what rights the passenger had with the tickets held.

Of course, if the passenger bought additional tickets, then the question no longer applies as the tickets would then be valid.

However I would doubt that there is an excess applicable for this, what sort of excess would it be? Over-distance to Haymarket maybe, but you'd then need an additional ticket from there. And, as I said earlier, the question no longer applies then.

Oh, and if the first opportunity to buy a ticket is after a breakdown, then so be it. I don't see how that changes anything.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,397
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Isn't this an unnecessarily complex example for 2 quite simple questions?

Q 1.) What rights does a passenger have when travelling with an invalid ticket?
A 1.) None.

Q 2.) What rights does a passenger have when holding a ticket?
A 2.) To be conveyed to the destination of the ticket.

Its made more complex that it need be; in a real example, the off-route element should surely be addressed first, by whatever mechanism which will render the ticket valid and the passenger a legitimate customer, after which the question of delays and 'rights' can be addressed.

Is this another example of a passenger putting their interest in their own 'rights' above their interest in their 'responsibilities'? If the responsibility of a passenger ensuring they were in possession of a valid ticket came first, then the 'rights' question flows naturally to the passenger's assistance.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,829
Location
Yorkshire
If I missed the 2230 from Glasgow (last direct train), I'd approach the guard on the 2300 (last journey opportunity) and ask for permission to travel via Haymarket.

I suspect some guards would grant that permission on the basis that they are not liable in the event of the connection being missed, and that permission would also need to be sought from the guard/ticket inspector between Haymarket and Livingston North, and I'd be happy with that.

If a passenger asked for permission to travel via Haymarket and was not happy with that position, then clearly they must pay the required amount to hold tickets valid via Haymarket. Equally, if the guard was not prepared to show discretion (which of course they have absolutely no obligation to) then clearly the passenger must pay.

If you ask for discretion then you can't "have your cake and eat it" if something goes wrong IMO.
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,893
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
This was in fact a genuine scenario which happened a few days ago. I wished to keep it general rather than specific to gauge the forums views before posting the actual event.

I find it preferable to use the stations involved than substituting A to B via C or D &c.

Although the numbers are not large it is not uncommon to come across a few passengers for Livingston North [LSN] on the 23:00 Glasgow QS [GLQ] - Edinburgh [EDB] service. The last direct train from the low level at GLQ departs at 22:30 so after 22:31 any journey enquiry put into avantix (and possibly other systems) would show the 23:00 departure for Haymarket [HYM], a five minute connection there to catch the last LSN service.

Now we are aware that journey planners do not always show permitted routes and that also permitted routes do not change due to the time of departure and in my personal experience I have never been asked for permission to travel by passengers holding said tickets prior to travel.

Notwithstanding the above, the passengers usually state, and I have no reason to doubt them, that the "man on the platform" said it would be fine. In any case if I was asked, in the interests of customer service, I would allow travel with the provisos yorkie states in post 15.

The reason for this thread was that a few days ago due to operational reasons (a train struck a deer damaging the engine), resulting in short delays to all trains using GLQ for about 30 - 35 mins, passengers for LSN missed their connection at HYM. Most delays were for no more than 5 - 10 mins however as the set to form the 23:00 did not arrive until 23:05 this wiped out the connection time at Haymarket for the last Bathgate service. I offered the advice that a taxi from Linlithgow would be both faster and cheaper than from Haymarket.

In my opinion passengers who has missed the 22:30 for LSN should (if time permits) be advised to travel on the 23:06 ex Glasgow Central to Livingston South or to Bathgate (where they can make their own way to Livingston North). If the option via Haymarket is offered then the risks should be explained clearly.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
If you ask for discretion then you can't "have your cake and eat it" if something goes wrong IMO.
You think?

What about the pax saying to the platform staff "but the man on the other train told me to travel this way, its your responsibility to get me home".

Bearing in mind the platform bod wont be able to check "the facts" they will no doubt feel compelled to get the pax home, never mind the fact the railway was trying to help them out because of their own stupidity in the first place.

Pax want their cake, eat it AND go back for seconds.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
In my opinion passengers who has missed the 22:30 for LSN should (if time permits) be advised to travel on the 23:06 ex Glasgow Central to Livingston South or to Bathgate (where they can make their own way to Livingston North). If the option via Haymarket is offered then the risks should be explained clearly.

For those of us who are non-local, can you advise whether North and south are like west hampstead/west hampstead thameslink (ie spitting distance) or like Hertford north and east (or yeovil town and junction) ie a 30-45 minute walk?

If the walk is a reasonable walk for an average person to do (bearing in mind their walk from the north station to their home aswell) then this seems sensible. But if the walk is such that we are pushed into taxi territory, then that isn't on in my opinion.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,864
For those of us who are non-local, can you advise whether North and south are like west hampstead/west hampstead thameslink (ie spitting distance) or like Hertford north and east (or yeovil town and junction) ie a 30-45 minute walk?

It's a one-hour walk.
 

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
2,893
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
For those of us who are non-local, can you advise whether North and south are like west hampstead/west hampstead thameslink (ie spitting distance) or like Hertford north and east (or yeovil town and junction) ie a 30-45 minute walk?

If the walk is a reasonable walk for an average person to do (bearing in mind their walk from the north station to their home aswell) then this seems sensible. But if the walk is such that we are pushed into taxi territory, then that isn't on in my opinion.

It's a one-hour walk.

I think it is just over 3 miles so one hour is about right. Livingston is more car friendly than anything else. It's the only town that I've managed to get myself lost in both walking & driving. :oops:

Ask yourself this though: where would you rather end up if you missed the last train home by a few minutes? A station in your home town where a taxi would only set you back a few quid (or your parents wouldn't mind that much picking you up from) or 25 miles away and £50 lighter in cab fares (& your old man tells you to stick it)?
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
Here's a question:

Person A is at a PF station and within the compulsory ticket zone, slips on a pool of water that hasn't been cleaned up. Person A injures themselves and is taken to hospital, and afterwards decides to take legal action against the TOC involved. The TOC involved has evidence that Person A did not have a ticket at the time.

Is the claim successful, and does Person A get compensation?
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,397
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
. . .

Is the claim successful, and does Person A get compensation?
This is exactly the sort of question which doesn't have a generic answer. Its the kind of claim which is often refused, then Appealled (where it may succeed or fail on its detail and case law), and if that wasn't successful perhaps taken to a Judicial Review or Supreme Court (where it may succeed or fail).

A quick glance at the Railway Regulations won't help us in the face of determined accident claim law firms and their Counsel. Claimants from other Countries sometimes try to bring their compensation claims to the UK just to increase their chances by having another round in one of our wonderful Courts!
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
Here's a question:

Person A is at a PF station and within the compulsory ticket zone, slips on a pool of water that hasn't been cleaned up. Person A injures themselves and is taken to hospital, and afterwards decides to take legal action against the TOC involved. The TOC involved has evidence that Person A did not have a ticket at the time.

Is the claim successful, and does Person A get compensation?

Surely this is a definite yes (just as a burglar would get compensation)?
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,764
Location
Essex
Here's a question:

Person A is at a PF station and within the compulsory ticket zone, slips on a pool of water that hasn't been cleaned up. Person A injures themselves and is taken to hospital, and afterwards decides to take legal action against the TOC involved. The TOC involved has evidence that Person A did not have a ticket at the time.

Is the claim successful, and does Person A get compensation?

It's likely that it would succeed. See BRB v Herrington.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top