Passenger service lines that deserve to close

[Mikey C]

I've no desire to see any railway line close. However this doesn't mean that the network as it is now is sacrosanct.

However much you spend on it, decisions will always have to be made. It's interesting for example how the UK is still prepared to support sleeper trains, while they're disappearing fast from much of Europe.
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You are correct, one of the aspects of railway management at all levels is the inability to see that, although there may be a station with the name of an urban area or whatever, it does not serve that place well.

Bristol Temple Meads, for example, is in a poor location relative to the commercial and retail centre of Bristol, beyond walking distance and not well connected by road. It's a significant part of how Bristol has so little commuting rail traffic. The one suburban branch, to Severn Beach, takes such a circuitous route that the road distance from Temple Meads to many of the branch stations is half that of rail.

Unfortunately the sheer effort and endless discussions that seem to be required for even a minor alteration to the Victorian infrastructure (look at all the hoopla arising from a repositioning just along the line of Rochester station) means there seems to be little prospect of sorting out the various major shortfalls.

In retrospect, the line to Bristol docks might have been quite useful. I guess Bristol's hilliness is the reason why it has poor rail connections to its suburbs when compared to other similarly sized cities?

 

[Harbornite]

You need to read Gerry Fiennes' book. Fiennes was the GM of first the Western and then the Eastern Regions, a lifelong practical railwayman. He writes that Beeching was the best thing that happened to railway management after a string of no-hopers. Yes, maybe 5-10% of what the Beeching plan closed could be considered a marginal decision, but the other 90% were basket cases financially. However, Beeching got the minister's ear for a whole lot of positive and major advances on the network for things the railway could do well, many of which are still with us - big investment in InterCity, faster and more frequent; Freightliner; coal merry-go-round; the British Rail new image, etc. All that, and a lot more, came from Beeching's era. And all he really did was to appoint the right railway professionals to make the right decisions.

I agree with this, the government could have refused to go ahead with Beeching's recommendations but mainly chose not to. The real issue was not leaving trackbeds clear, which has been mentioned elsewhere on here.

 

[bicbasher]

Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction. Birkbeck has some of the lowest NR passenger usage in London and is served by Tramlink. There is already no Sunday service on this section of track with trains terminating at Crystal Palace.

Crystal Palace has regular bus services serving Beckenham.

I suspect if Crystal Palace would have got the Tramlink extension, the Southern service would have been axed.

 

[Antman]

Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction. Birkbeck has some of the lowest NR passenger usage in London and is served by Tramlink. There is already no Sunday service on this section of track with trains terminating at Crystal Palace.

Crystal Palace has regular bus services serving Beckenham.

I suspect if Crystal Palace would have got the Tramlink extension, the Southern service would have been axed.

But this line does provide a useful link between Beckenham and beyond to various other parts of South London.

Quite honestly I don't think the proposed Tramlink extension to Crystal Palace was ever justified.

The Bromley North branch would be a far better candidate for closure.

 

[frodshamfella]

Nothing should be closed, all too short sighted
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How about the Bromley North branch and why is the West Highland line north of Hellensburgh and the Kyle line still open?

Wouldn't Bromley North be more popular if at least some peak direct services to Charing Cross and Cannon Street returned?

 

[adrock1976]

But this line does provide a useful link between Beckenham and beyond to various other parts of South London.

Quite honestly I don't think the proposed Tramlink extension to Crystal Palace was ever justified.

The Bromley North branch would be a far better candidate for closure.

With me not knowing the area very well, could the Grove Park - Bromley North shuttle be converted as part of a Bromley Tramlink scheme?

 

[frodshamfella]

Helsby to Ellesmere Port is lightly used but I don't think it should close, the opposite in fact, a useable service should he provided, particularly with more housing at Once and Elton and and a Chester university campus coming there plus the Halton Curve coming back. The railways should be easing life for travelling public, get them out of cars.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I agree with this, the government could have refused to go ahead with Beeching's recommendations but mainly chose not to. The real issue was not leaving trackbeds clear, which has been mentioned elsewhere on here.

There was a clause in the 1962 Act that stipulated that the right of way was to be protected for disused lines that were seen to be of possible future strategic use

I do not have the relevant information to hand but I can assure you that this was certainly the case in Cardiff with the Riverside Branch being designated as such when closure took place.

It seems very odd, that with the regeneration of Cardiff Docklands, the platforms, at Cardiff Central, serving the branch were destroyed when all the new building was going on at Cardiff Bay. Clarence Road station had been rebuilt, in about 1960, and was adjacent to, what is now, a thriving area of the city.

Lack of foresight or sheer bloodymindedness?

 

[Antman]

With me not knowing the area very well, could the Grove Park - Bromley North shuttle be converted as part of a Bromley Tramlink scheme?

Possibly if Tramlink was ever extended to Bromley? Bromley North station is a bit remote from the town centre and there are alternative bus services that go right into town.

 

[backontrack]

70%/30% more likely.

Agreed.
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Possibly if Tramlink was ever extended to Bromley? Bromley North station is a bit remote from the town centre and there are alternative bus services that go right into town.

You'd want to connect it up with Bromley South too. You could extend the line from Beckenham Junction to Shortlands and then to Bromley South, then to Bromley North, Sundridge Park and Grove Park, then to the station at Lee. Finally, you could terminate at Hither Green.

Alternatively, you could run into Downham...

 

[JohnR]

You need to read Gerry Fiennes' book. Fiennes was the GM of first the Western and then the Eastern Regions, a lifelong practical railwayman. He writes that Beeching was the best thing that happened to railway management after a string of no-hopers. Yes, maybe 5-10% of what the Beeching plan closed could be considered a marginal decision, but the other 90% were basket cases financially. However, Beeching got the minister's ear for a whole lot of positive and major advances on the network for things the railway could do well, many of which are still with us - big investment in InterCity, faster and more frequent; Freightliner; coal merry-go-round; the British Rail new image, etc. All that, and a lot more, came from Beeching's era. And all he really did was to appoint the right railway professionals to make the right decisions.

From 'I Tried to Run a Railway'

They laid it down in general that rural railways did not pay, which was true; and could never pay, which was false. They did not, therefore, require more than the most elementary arithmetic on the losses either in general or in particular. They took no account of the new techniques; either coming into operation like diesel traction, or just round the corner like automatic level crossings, mechanised track maintenance, tokenless block signalling, and ‘bus stop operation which can cut the cost of rural railways by more than half.

 

[PaulLothian]

...why is the West Highland line north of Hellensburgh and the Kyle line still open?

Neither of these lines fit the criteria in the OP ("those lines that do not provide a vital social or strategic need"). The major reason for their original retention was very much about preventing the isolation of large areas of Scotland and keeping links to island communities. At some times of the year, trains on the West Highland line are extremely busy; we travelled to Mallaig last year on a service that had standing room only. The Kyle line probably has less demand overall, but is still very significant in the daily life of the communities it serves.

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Sorry - missed several other posts making the same point!

 

[Mark62]

I agree with this, the government could have refused to go ahead with Beeching's recommendations but mainly chose not to. The real issue was not leaving trackbeds clear, which has been mentioned elsewhere on here.

The labour government implemented much of benching. They were controlled by the unions back then and powerful unions such as the car makers put massive pressure on the government to close railways and create work for their union members.
Many closures were politically motivated with some very dubious decisions by the transport ministers.
British rail under orders from their paymasters conducted appalling dirty tricks campaigns to get lines closed. For example , look at the fun and games that surrounded the closure of the Mablethorpe and surrounding branches.
And once a line was closed major bridges would be quickly demolished to make reopening virtually impossible
Beaching himself never closed a single line. He made had the labour government to do his dirty work. And they did it with alacrity

 

[Antman]

Agreed.
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You'd want to connect it up with Bromley South too. You could extend the line from Beckenham Junction to Shortlands and then to Bromley South, then to Bromley North, Sundridge Park and Grove Park, then to the station at Lee. Finally, you could terminate at Hither Green.

Alternatively, you could run into Downham...

Yes there are quite a few options if Tramlink was ever extended to Bromley!

 

[backontrack]

Yes there are quite a few options if Tramlink was ever extended to Bromley!

Indeed! Though it would mess up the map a bit...

 

[Lankyline]

The labour government implemented much of benching. They were controlled by the unions back then and powerful unions such as the car makers put massive pressure on the government to close railways and create work for their union members.
Many closures were politically motivated with some very dubious decisions by the transport ministers.
British rail under orders from their paymasters conducted appalling dirty tricks campaigns to get lines closed. For example , look at the fun and games that surrounded the closure of the Mablethorpe and surrounding branches.
And once a line was closed major bridges would be quickly demolished to make reopening virtually impossible
Beaching himself never closed a single line. He made had the labour government to do his dirty work. And they did it with alacrity

Not just the labour govt, don't forget Beeching was brought in by a Tory govt under Macmillan. Labour's promise to reverse the cuts was just political spin to help win an election and as we know it never happened, they just carried on with the closures.

True, quite a number of closures and a percentage of lines saved were politically motivated, HoWL being a classic example of politically motivated saving of a line due to the labour marginals it ran through.

Marples, Castle, Marsh and BR were all guilty of authorising closures purely in the name of cost and politics, which as we know decimated not just main & rural routes but whole areas ie Cornwall, Lincolnshire etc