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Passenger train formations in the loco-hauled era

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Beebman

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I don’t know what happened to them as they were not that popular in very busy trains as less seating in them. I guess they were ideal on the Midland Scot and Liverpool Scot service as only a few places would be laid up as you say.

I travelled on one in 1984 on a service from Liverpool to Reading but I'm sure no tables were laid up. More recently in 2012 I travelled on one on the Jacobite to Mallaig with a first class ticket, maybe it was substituting for a Mk1 FO. According to the RCTS list, WCRC has 5238 and 5254 in their fleet.
 
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hexagon789

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Did these 110mph trains make more calls? In the 1974 TT most trains called Carlisle and Preston only plus in some cases Motherwell or Watford.

Also, during certain hours trains had a weave allowance for slow line running which I think was 12 minutes which often resulted in very early Euston arrivals - my first Royal Scot run (Preston only) in 74 was 4 hrs 51.
In 1984 The Royal Scot was Preston & Carlisle both ways and was timed 5hrs 05 down/5hrs 03 up ; the other 110mph workings (also named services - The Glasgow Executive) made a few more calls - Lancaster additionally in the down (5h05 to Glasgow) and Motherwell, Lancaster & Crewe in the up (5h15 to London).




Although a higher braking rate on some vehicles would mean they did a greater amount of the braking I would have though pad wear difference would be marginal. There would however be more braking shocks. and in the days of unreliable WSP possibly more flats. I seem to recall that when the braking was increased there was talk of adjusting the Mk2’s and Mk1’s to compensate but this never went anywhere and would have meant all sorts of practical problems and there was a cost so it was not done.
So essentially for passenger comfort

They did, and on Liverpool-Edinburgh this was my favourite vehicle. It wasn't normally laid out for many places, sometimes only a couple of bays, as there wasn't a lot of demand for table service dining on the trains - maybe one steward and one chef, who also covered items at the buffet. The SO vehicles, 2+1 standard class seating, 48 seats, were original Mk 2 vacuum braked ones, so once the trains moved on to air brake they were gone. I wonder where they got used then.
They were converted to air brake and used with the newly arrived Mk2C coaches from 1968/9 as dining cars, some Mk1 FO, Mk1 BG and Mk1 catering vehicles were converted at the same time specifically to run in sets with the new air braked coaches, the LMR running only vacuum braked express trains until the 2C arrived.
 

Cheshire Scot

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There was mention in one recent thread of platform lengths - I think it was this one but haven't tracked back.

it reminded me the regular practice at Settle was for the Thames Clyde Express to make a double stop to ensure all coaches were platformed. Normal load was 9, I think it just about fitted at Appleby but based on today's lengths - unless they have been shortened since then - would also be overlength at both Annan and Kirkconnel although I don't recall double stops there. No doubt there were other routes where double stops were the norm. or even by exception if e.g. there was a passenger with a lot of luggage in a coach which would normally be off the platform.

The up and down Thames Clyde provided two of the four daily calls at Settle for many years, how times have changed!
 

hexagon789

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There was mention in one recent thread of platform lengths - I think it was this one but haven't tracked back.

it reminded me the regular practice at Settle was for the Thames Clyde Express to make a double stop to ensure all coaches were platformed. Normal load was 9, I think it just about fitted at Appleby but based on today's lengths - unless they have been shortened since then - would also be overlength at both Annan and Kirkconnel although I don't recall double stops there. No doubt there were other routes where double stops were the norm. or even by exception if e.g. there was a passenger with a lot of luggage in a coach which would normally be off the platform.

The up and down Thames Clyde provided two of the four daily calls at Settle for many years, how times have changed!
Was booked 10 coaches in summer, 9 after October in the last year it ran as a namer, 1974.

It was usually booked 12 coaches in summer in the 1960s.

I do seem to remember mentioned of the double stop practice elsewhere, I think someone said that it was often done for summer Saturday dated and relief trains which were often at least 12 or 13 coaches of course.
 

tbwbear

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I don’t know what happened to them as they were not that popular in very busy trains as less seating in them. I guess they were ideal on the Midland Scot and Liverpool Scot service as only a few places would be laid up as you say.
The SO ( 2 +1) Mk 2z vehicles were used on the Manchester/ Liverpool to Glasgow / Edinburgh trains as late as 78 / 79 as regular 2nd class vehicles - or are we talking later than that that ?
 

hexagon789

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The SO ( 2 +1) Mk 2z vehicles were used on the Manchester/ Liverpool to Glasgow / Edinburgh trains as late as 78 / 79 as regular 2nd class vehicles - or are we talking later than that that ?
Still there in 1981, presumably as fluid dining given the marshalling adjacent to the catering vehicle.
 

tbwbear

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Still there in 1981, presumably as fluid dining given the marshalling adjacent to the catering vehicle.
Did those trains have full restaurant cars back then ? My memory is hazy ?

I remember sitting in the old SO on the evening northbound departure from Preston thinking it was quite cool only to have 2+1 seating. I don‘t think it had a restaurant car - but I could be wrong and of course a train it worked earlier in the day could have had one.
 

hexagon789

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Did those trains have full restaurant cars back then ? My memory is hazy ?

I remember sitting in the old SO on the evening northbound departure from Preston thinking it was quite cool only to have 2+1 seating. I don‘t think it had a restaurant car - but I could be wrong and of course a train it worked earlier in the day could have had one.
In 1980/81 some of the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Birminghams have a restaurant and buffet service; the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Liverpool/Manchester are all buffet only

Going back to 1974/5 all have both restaurant and buffet service.

It seems the Scotland-Liverpool/Manchester lost the restaurants between the 1975/6 timetable when they are still marked with the 'knife and fork' and 1976/7 when they just have the 'teacup'
 

Taunton

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2+1 seats in second class were no different to what was provided in previous Mk 1 side corridor stock on the LMR and ER. They had (liftable) armrests and three seat reservation tabs which showed they were intended for 3-across. Some, only, had a small notice to the effect that if the train was crowded, lift the armrests and sit 4-across. But nobody ever did.

The WR and SR had a plain bench seat, no armrests, and four seat reservation tabs.
 

randyrippley

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2+1 seats in second class were no different to what was provided in previous Mk 1 side corridor stock on the LMR and ER. They had (liftable) armrests and three seat reservation tabs which showed they were intended for 3-across. Some, only, had a small notice to the effect that if the train was crowded, lift the armrests and sit 4-across. But nobody ever did.

The WR and SR had a plain bench seat, no armrests, and four seat reservation tabs.
Some of the WR/SR stock was 3-across with the armrests jammed closed and 4-across numbering
 

hexagon789

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2+1 seats in second class were no different to what was provided in previous Mk 1 side corridor stock on the LMR and ER. They had (liftable) armrests and three seat reservation tabs which showed they were intended for 3-across. Some, only, had a small notice to the effect that if the train was crowded, lift the armrests and sit 4-across. But nobody ever did.

The WR and SR had a plain bench seat, no armrests, and four seat reservation tabs.
Though it didn't take long for vehicles to transfer between regions with the WR and SR ending up with six-seaters (though they were easily converted to permanent eight-seaters by sewing up the armrests) and eight-seaters to the other regions.

Almost every BR Scottish Region sectional appendix I've looked at had a note making mention of this and advising that such vehicles should be treated as six-seaters for seat reservation purposes.

It seems that there was never eight to six-seat conversions only the opposite.

Some of the WR/SR stock was 3-across with the armrests jammed closed and 4-across numbering
Plenty by the 1970s
 
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