Passenger Trains delayed by Freight Trains

[peter166]

I was travelling on VT 09.07 Euston to Liverpool on Friday 10//11/17.
It made good time to Brinklow, South of Nuneaton but then was delayed approx. 5 mins by the 617F Dollands Moor to Ditton Freight.
Then it was delayed again from Hartford Jct by the 414W Felixstowe to Garston Freight with a slow crawl from Weaver Jct to Runcorn where arrival was 8 mins late, eventually getting clear signals again ftrom Speke Jct.
Arrival at Crewe, Runcorn & Lime St would probably all have been on time if it hadn't been for the Freight trains getting in the way.
Shouln't the signallers have done better?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P51568/2017/11/10/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H15555/2017/11/10/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H01185/2017/11/10/advanced

Further evidence on the same day of the same problem.
1A30 11.47 Liverpool to Euston delayed by 14 mins by 662J Halewood to Southampton Freight between DittonEast Jct. & Crewe.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P51316/2017/11/10/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H15813/2017/11/10/advanced

 

[northernchris]

It's an interesting one as I suspect the signallers are looking at a wider picture and if they allow one train through ahead of a freight it could disrupt another later on. That said, the 1616 Manchester Victoria-Leeds often gets delayed by a freight in the Rochdale area and due to this diagram having very tight turnarounds at both at Leeds and Manchester Victoria it can sometimes disrupt the next 2 journeys meaning the unit is still running late up to 4 hours later

 

[GB]

Bigger picture, wider picture and the fact freight pays for its paths just like passenger.

 

[Eccles1983]

At Man vic it happens a lot and for very good reason.

No signaller wants to stop freight going up the bank when it has a head of steam built up. If they did the delays would go through the roof.

Let the freight get up the hill, its a few minutes. Stop it and you could be looking at hours of delays.

 

[Oxfordblues]

There's a common misconception that freight trains are looped at the discretion of the signaller to avoid delaying any following passenger train, the implication being that freight is somehow "less important" than passenger traffic. The reality is that regular and STP freight trains are pathed between passenger trains and if everything's running on time any looping is already scheduled.

I'm always irked when I see old photo captions of express passenger steam locomotives on freight trains saying they'd been "relegated" to "lesser duties" even though the freight trains they're hauling might well have generated more revenue than the prestige passenger services from which they were displaced.

 

[Atishyou]

It takes a lot less to get a passenger going than it does a freight train and what can be just as frustrating, is on occasion when a freight is running early, it gets shoved in a loop or held on a slow line beyond time, picking up delays, for a late running passenger.

 

[55018ballymoss]

It seems that Peter, the OP, has limited knowledge of the situation but cannot resist a pop at the signallers who as other posters have said, have a view of the overall picture, and are trying to manage delays in order that as many trains as possible arrive at their destinations within the agreed margins such as PPM and FPM.
From what I can ascertain the train that the original poster was travelling on arrived less than 10 minutes late at the destination, so with the current measurements, it is classed as on time, and the signallers have achieved what some days is virtually impossible, namely keeping things to time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There are far, far fewer loops and goods lines available for recessing and regulation of freight traffic. Coupled to the fact that freight only makes profits through maximum efficiency and the shortest end-to-end times possible (based on 24hr cycles of loco and wagon rakes) then the decision of a signaller to shove a freight train into a loop on an unplanned basis and possibly delay it by a couple of hours or more can have far more impact to the operator compared to delaying a Pendolino by 10 mins and possibly requiring VT Control to perform a set swap to get back on diagram.

 

[Moonshot]

It seems that Peter, the OP, has limited knowledge of the situation but cannot resist a pop at the signallers who as other posters have said, have a view of the overall picture, and are trying to manage delays in order that as many trains as possible arrive at their destinations within the agreed margins such as PPM and FPM.
From what I can ascertain the train that the original poster was travelling on arrived less than 10 minutes late at the destination, so with the current measurements, it is classed as on time, and the signallers have achieved what some days is virtually impossible, namely keeping things to time.

As always, knowledge from the inside is worth far more than the average post......maybe we should point the average trainspotter in the direction of Network Rails " Rules of the Route " literature - its mindbogglingy complex to say the least !!

 

[LAX54]

Well the second of those delays were down to Exceptional Railhead Conditions, thus delaying all trains, (58 in fact) first reported by the 0746 ex Four Oaks, so no, the Signaller was not at fault, or 'done better' !
As for the first, Loco temp failure ahead, delaying traffic in rear, so again nope, Signaller was not at fault

 

[DarloRich]

It seems that Peter, the OP, has limited knowledge of the situation but cannot resist a pop at the signallers who as other posters have said, have a view of the overall picture, and are trying to manage delays in order that as many trains as possible arrive at their destinations within the agreed margins such as PPM and FPM.
From what I can ascertain the train that the original poster was travelling on arrived less than 10 minutes late at the destination, so with the current measurements, it is classed as on time, and the signallers have achieved what some days is virtually impossible, namely keeping things to time.

Correct. Bigger picture. Frustrating as it can be to be delayed a few minutes behind a freight or a stopper it might be the only way to achieve the largest number of PPM arrivals.

Worth noting that non of the freight "headcodes" quoited are actual headcodes. That Really frustrates me - just use the service details. argh.

 

[furnessvale]

Correct. Bigger picture. Frustrating as it can be to be delayed a few minutes behind a freight or a stopper it might be the only way to achieve the largest number of PPM arrivals.

True. The alternative would be to put a late running class 1 in the hole if it interfered with a string of freights running on time.

 

[LowLevel]

Sometimes though you can't help but bang your head against a wall. I shall give an example from last week that resulted in near 30 minute delays to 2 services, removal of stops for service recovery, all sorts of reactionary delays and the necessity to find a member of train crew for a service the next morning as a result of rest hours being blown.

Last Wednesday - Northern strike day.

EMT Norwich - Liverpool service leaves Stockport on time on the down slow alongside a late running 390 on the down fast. 390 gets the road straight through Slade Lane Junction. 1Rxx gets detained to allow a 1 hour late intermodal bound for Trafford Park out in front. The next train from Heald Green way is due in about 10 minutes. EMT service follows said liner to Trafford Park and then stands the far side of Cornbrook for 25 minutes while it waits acceptance into the terminal because there's already a train going in at the football ground. No Northern Cheshire Lines local due to strike action. Detaining the freight may have rippled the 1Nxx Blackpool for a minute or two but probably wouldn't have - the EMT service would have made dwell as it did anyway, been away right time and the liner would hardly have seen it and could then have sat on the down Liverpool blocking nothing else for up to half an hour until the xx16 Warrington and Scarborough - Liverpool right in front of it left Oxford Road.

 

[Spartacus]

To be fair, the first freight looks like it's lost 5 minutes after it was regulated North if Rugby, quite a lot for what normally isn't a very heavy train, I'd expect a couple of minute no more. Had it only lost that it would barely have affected the passenger behind it.

 

[zaax]

I suppect that more revenue is generated by rail freight than by passenegers

 

[nw1]

I suppect that more revenue is generated by rail freight than by passenegers

Is that the right attitude though? Human cost needs to come into the equation more, and the human cost of a delayed passenger train would I suspect be more than the human cost of an equivalently delayed freight train.

 

[zaax]

Human cost and money. Humans loose all the time

 

[furnessvale]

Is that the right attitude though? Human cost needs to come into the equation more, and the human cost of a delayed passenger train would I suspect be more than the human cost of an equivalently delayed freight train.

Delay freight trains too much and the freight then goes by road instead.
What human cost then?

 

[Antman]

Human cost and money. Humans loose all the time

Do they? I thought passenger trains were given priority over freight wherever possible?

 

[Highlandspring]

This is a specious argument. Signallers and Controllers do not make regulating decisions based on which train is likely to have generated the most revenue.

 

[westv]

I do find the "if it's within 10 minutes it's on time" rule rather amusing. If I pay £9 for a £10 fare can I say "it's within £1 of the right amount so it is the right amount".

 

[Moonshot]

I do find the "if it's within 10 minutes it's on time" rule rather amusing. If I pay £9 for a £10 fare can I say "it's within £1 of the right amount so it is the right amount".

In that context surely the TOC would be entitled to ask you to pay an extra £1 if the train was 10 minutes early. !!

 

[westv]

In that context surely the TOC would be entitled to ask you to pay an extra £1 if the train was 10 minutes early. !!

10 mins early? Now that really is fantasy land.

 

[cambsy]

I have been 7-10 mins early before on long distance trains, London-Warrington, both ways when given a good run.

 

[hibtastic]

This happened to me last week when travelling from Manchester Picc to Euston and at the same place (Nuneaton). I was sitting in coach K and the driver (assume he was the driver as he came from the cab) actually came and sat in a first class seat whilst we waited, moaning about being brought down from 125mph to allow a freight train to cross over in front. After several minutes he got up and went back to the cab.

 

[Taunton]

The railway, like other transport systems, is a common use facility, for both passengers and freight. I don't make any value judgements about me being more important if I can't do 70mph on the M25 because of a large number of heavy lorries on a congested section, and the same surely applies to the railway. Time was (not too long ago) when there was sufficient slack in the asset usage that one didn't get in the other's way too much, but with the increase in services, and in their speed differential, it's really defying reality to expect them all to run perfectly every day. For all we know the freights might have been delayed by a passenger service earlier.

Those controlling go for the best overall position. The Southall accident, where a HST blew through a red and struck a heavy freight crossing the fast lines, was described as poor regulating - overlooking that it had a passenger service held up behind it on the Down Relief, and there was a short window on the Down Main to get it across before a group of Down services.

 

[rebmcr]

The Southall accident, where a HST blew through a red and struck a heavy freight crossing the fast lines, was described as poor regulating

I recall that the official report discussed the requirement of crossing over somewhere, and that there were only two suitable routes to take, either of which would have resulted in some conflict. The conclusion being that the signaller had not acted inappropriately.

 

[Elecman]

This happened to me last week when travelling from Manchester Picc to Euston and at the same place (Nuneaton). I was sitting in coach K and the driver (assume he was the driver as he came from the cab) actually came and sat in a first class seat whilst we waited, moaning about being brought down from 125mph to allow a freight train to cross over in front. After several minutes he got up and went back to the cab.

I can’t imagine that would be the driver, maybe another person travelling in the cab.?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Been a growing problem on Greater Anglia lately happened this morning and again tonight. From looking at twitter it was happening yesterday too whilst at the weekend I got hit by minor delays due to the flying Scotsman!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can empathise. It used to drive me mad when my commuter train into London was always 5 minutes late because there was a Freightliner (timetabled to be looped at Kings Langley) which was always 10 late. Unless it was really late, in which case we followed it on yellows all the way to Wembley...

And then on the way home, the Freightliners off the NLL at Primrose Hill were always 10 late and chucked out in front of my train. Again, cue 10-15 minute delays following the damn thing on yellows.

But I can understand why it happens. You can't exactly queue freights up on the NLL and it is usually better overall to keep the heavy freight moving rather than stop-starting behind a stopping passenger train.