Passenger Trains delayed by Freight Trains

[F Great Eastern]

Honestly it never happened often to me until the last fcouple of weeks where it has happened a lot more than it did previously, I've literally came to the station at least half a dozen times in the last week or two and read "due to a late running freight train" either on Journeycheck or the departure boards.

There was a few cancellations yesterday as well just after AM peak, and some trains 20 minute or more down. It happened again this morning too!

 

[Mag_seven]

In BR days didn't all class 1 services take priority over freights?

 

[furnessvale]

Honestly it never happened often to me until the last fcouple of weeks where it has happened a lot more than it did previously, I've literally came to the station at least half a dozen times in the last week or two and read "due to a late running freight train" either on Journeycheck or the departure boards.

There was a few cancellations yesterday as well just after AM peak, and some trains 20 minute or more down. It happened again this morning too!

Very easy to use that reason. Even if a late running freight train was involved, what caused the freight to be late? Perhaps a late running passenger in front of it?

 

[furnessvale]

In BR days didn't all class 1 services take priority over freights?

Yes, that is one of the reasons that freight was on a steep declining curve.
Now that coal has virtually gone, a lot of modern freight is high value merchandise and it deserves its place in the queue.

 

[Taunton]

In BR days didn't all class 1 services take priority over freights?

Not always. It was common climbing Shap to get a signal check due to a slow freight ahead. Otherwise you would never get the capacity.

But as described, there was still a wider view. A freight would be given priority ahead of a Class 1 if, in turn, it would otherwise delay two other Class 1s.

 

[westv]

Very easy to use that reason. Even if a late running freight train was involved, what caused the freight to be late? Perhaps a late running passenger in front of it?

That's something that really bugs me, arriving on time at a station but ending up leaving late due to another late running passenger service.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a lot of freight around at the moment, particularly containers. Bringing all the Christmas goods in.

 

[Kite159]

It's happened a couple times for me when heading on a GWR service into Basingstoke, where the unit has been held up for a freight train to pass before the unit could gain access to the platform 5 bay.

 

[Puffing Devil]

In the USA passenger services regularly take second place to freight, as that's what pays the bills!

 

[BurtonM]

It's more often 142s holding up my progress than freight.
For a few weeks on a Thursday night I did regularly get held up by an NR measurement train though.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, that is one of the reasons that freight was on a steep declining curve.
Now that coal has virtually gone, a lot of modern freight is high value merchandise and it deserves its place in the queue.

Of course, the other way to look at it is that freight is an inevitably fickle business - flows come and go, including 'King Coal' so however much you prioritise it, it could be gone tomorrow. A steady passenger flow, on the other hand, is what will secure your business (i.e. the line) over the long term, so you don't want to go jeopardising it by prioritising late freight trains in front of passenger ones willy-nilly.

 

[the_wanderer]

Very easy to use that reason. Even if a late running freight train was involved, what caused the freight to be late? Perhaps a late running passenger in front of it?

Yes, but where do you stop with that? The whole point of the CIS screen is to transfer information into a format that is accessible and understood by all. It's not about source delays, that's what level one delay attribution is for surely? If 2X-blip has left station x ahead of 1X-blip then the class 1 is being delayed by a class 2 ahead of it - there may be any number of reasons that class 2 is late, but is that actually relevant to the majority of customers on the station?

 

[The Crab]

This reminds me of the most bizarre piece of operating I ever saw. I was on a Liverpool-Euston express, probably about '69, and we were brought to a stand somewhere south of Roade. A coal train hauled by a AL1 or AL5 (later 81/85) came past us, presumably off the Northampton loop, and was then crossed onto the fast in front of us! Pity we didn't have "WTF" in those days! King Coal indeed.

Incidentally I think that was the only electrically hauled coal train I have ever seen other than over Woodhead.

 

[Master29]

As always arguments both ways. Can be very frustrating when on a train delayed "by a poxy freight train" (what I say at the time when it happens) but when you look at our antiquated network with seemingly an endless set of variables you cannot help but feel sympathy for both the signalman and the freight trains. You`ve only got to look at RTT and see how late some of these guys are having to run.

 

[BanburyBlue]

My (uneducated) understanding was that 'normally' freight gave way to passenger services because passenger services had strict timetables, whereas freight had a bit more leeway. So how does freight timetabling work? How much of a problem is it if a freight train arrives at its destination 30 minutes late. Surely this is no different to a lorry getting held up on the M1? I guess it is a problem if a load of Jaguar cars have turned up at Southampton from Castle Bromwich and the car freight ship has left, but surely they build in enough flexibility around this?

 

[AM9]

The problem is (as has been alluded to above) many freight trains run late because of tardy timekeeping of passenger trains. Typically this might be because passengers are slow alighting or holding doors open for latecomers. It may only delay their train a minute or two but on the 21st century railway running near capacity, timetables leave little slack for such errant behaviour of passengers or indeed staff who are not discouraging or preventing that behaviour. Getting trains out of sequence, particularly on high traffic lines, can cause particular problems given that freight trains can be 2 to 3 times the length and weight of even 12-car passenger trains, and as a consequence, when stopped in inappropriate locations can block junctions and platforms, and have much slower acceleration especially if gradients are involved. All of which will result in even more passenger delays.
If the OP and some of the others posting in this thread are just complaining because they were inconvenienced, - well thats part of the public transport function of the railway. That is, the staff work to give the majority of passengers a better service, not just a few.

 

[Llanigraham]

In the USA passenger services regularly take second place to freight, as that's what pays the bills!

In Canada as well.
We went form Toronto to Vancouver 3 years ago, and eventually arrived in Vancouver 12 hours late, and had made up 4 hours following a reduced time crew change stop in Winipeg. At least it meant we went down the Fraser River Canyon in daylight!

 

[GB]

My (uneducated) understanding was that 'normally' freight gave way to passenger services because passenger services had strict timetables, whereas freight had a bit more leeway. So how does freight timetabling work? How much of a problem is it if a freight train arrives at its destination 30 minutes late. Surely this is no different to a lorry getting held up on the M1? I guess it is a problem if a load of Jaguar cars have turned up at Southampton from Castle Bromwich and the car freight ship has left, but surely they build in enough flexibility around this?

30 minutes can be recoverable (just) but freight turn arounds can be very strict and very tight. Depending on location the the unloading facility may operate on a slot bases....that is to say that each train has an operating window for unloading and loading. A late arrival can have a knock on effect to other services or cargo may miss the train going back out. Many road hauliers run on the same principle of windows, if they are late then their load might be rejected.

Felixstowe is one such example and things are made worse by the single line. 30 minutes late at Ipswich may well turn out to be 60-90 minutes late at the terminal depending on time of day. But the general rule of thumb is, if one goes in late, at least one will come out late waiting for it.

 

[peter166]

Here is yet another example:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/B24559/2017/11/16/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P51604/2017/11/16/advanced

Why was the Crewe to Preston infrastructure/ Freight train put onto the Fast Line at Winsford ahead of the 1F26 Euston to Liverpool Express causing delay?

 

[westv]

The problem is (as has been alluded to above) many freight trains run late because of tardy timekeeping of passenger trains. Typically this might be because passengers are slow alighting or holding doors open for latecomers. It may only delay their train a minute or two but on the 21st century railway running near capacity, timetables leave little slack for such errant behaviour of passengers

In 38 years of train travel I don't remember any delays due to slow passengers.

 

[221129]

In 38 years of train travel I don't remember any delays due to slow passengers.

I do. Every single day....

 

[GB]

Here is yet another example:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/B24559/2017/11/16/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P51604/2017/11/16/advanced

Why was the Crewe to Preston infrastructure/ Freight train put onto the Fast Line at Winsford ahead of the 1F26 Euston to Liverpool Express causing delay?

Perhaps because the freight was booked to be ahead of it?

 

[Tomnick]

Perhaps because the freight was booked to be ahead of it?

Indeed. It looks like the freight was knocked for a couple of minutes by the freight in front of it, itself delayed to allow the delayed 9S97 to run first.

1F57 left Crewe at the same time as 1F26 (the train in question) passed, so was presumably run slow line (all the way to Winsford?). Holding that second freight to avoid a whole two minutes’ delay to 1F26 would, in that case, have hammered 1F57 instead.

The bigger picture...

 

[IanXC]

From my experience most delayed freight trains come from late starts from various freight terminals. Often not by huge amounts, but when a Class 6 is 10-15 late leaving onto a busy route it will be out of position and not fitting into the wider timetable as it is intended to... said delay then leaks out across the network!

 

[pompeyfan]

Below is an extract from another forum I’m a member of.... some people might well find it interesting...

[person A]

we were brought in on the wrong platform, why the signaller couldn't just hold us for an extra 3 minutes at the junction is beyond me. [/person A]

[person B].... because the signaller was probably fed up at getting delay minutes allocated to him for making a regulating decision.

Example:

• We can have a freight train enter our area Right Time, gets held in the middle for a passenger train and arrive late at a second regulating point 5 minutes late.
  
• It is booked to be held at the regulating point for 35 minutes.
  
• When it leaves the regulating point it is 3 or 4 minutes early (but in its right pathway)

If the freight was booked to time, track defects mean that the passenger train would be 5 or 6 minutes late to destination.
With the freight being held, both trains get to destination on time. It does not inconvenience any other service and there are no crew changes or anything that would be affected.

Logic would tell you holding the freight is the right thing to do. Each train gets to it's critical points on time (station stops, destinations).
What actually happens is the delay to the freight for holding it is allocated to the signaller and (theoretically) anything from £80 to £400 a minute of delay is passed from the Infrastructure Operator to the Freight Operator.

(of course - delay payments, etc, is just a paper exercise, but it still auditable)


So the signaller can be stuck between a rock and a hard place. The delay attribution guide is freely available for download; it runs to 127 pages.

[/Person B]

 

[yorksrob]

Below is an extract from another forum I’m a member of.... some people might well find it interesting...

So it's basically because of the system put in place during the privatisation fiasco.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Delay attribution started under BR. The TRUST system, still in use, was developed by BR.

How is anybody supposed to manage and improve performance if there is no accurate and detailed data about where and why delays are occurring.

 

[westv]

Delay attribution started under BR. The TRUST system, still in use, was developed by BR.

How is anybody supposed to manage and improve performance if there is no accurate and detailed data about where and why delays are occurring.

Well according to 221129 and AM9 it's all the fault of passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Delay attribution started under BR. The TRUST system, still in use, was developed by BR.

How is anybody supposed to manage and improve performance if there is no accurate and detailed data about where and why delays are occurring.

Finding how and why a delay occurred isn't the same as putting a freight in front of a passenger train where it's not appropriate.

 

[Loop & Link]

Cumulative below threshold delay caused by heavy passenger loading (RB, in TDA terms) is a genuine cause of delays, which can lead to above threshold delay and PPM failures.