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Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

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Robertj21a

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That is the most insulting, ill-informed, ill-mannered and preposterous post here!
You have proved that you haven't read any of the comments of the PROFFESIONAL railway workers here and none absolutely nothing about how and why the railways do things.

Not sure that you really need to get so high and mighty. There's some valid issues there that need to be addressed.
 
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SUB62

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The lack of empathy and humility staff across the network seem to have shown paying customers in this case is simply staggering. This incident just fills me with utter contempt for those who work on the railway and yet defend what happened. Despite being a privatised industry, this incident merely seems to reinforce the idea that the railways still behaves like a nationalised industry, in which employees seem to think they can still get away with not doing what's right 'because it's more than my job's worth' or because the rulebook doesn't permit it. When the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan, people should be doing what is necessary to make things right not replying on those crutches.

It boils down to two things. Communication with your customers, and using your initiative. Neither seem to have happened. We have an industry waylaid by a rule book that stifles staff from doing what's right for passengers. It wouldn't happen in true private industry, because if it did then ultimately the business would start to collapse. But of course those in the railway can go home at the end of the day with warm fuzzy feelings because they know come what may and however their industry treats passengers, the railway will still be here tomorrow.

Some of the more rediculous things suggested that happe on this topic, that a true customer-focused business would not countenance include:
  • Train drivers not using the PA - crazy, they're customers not self-loading cargo. Keep them informed. PA broken - train driver needs to get off their ass and go back to the coaches to tell passengers what's happening. Set mandatory intervals for drivers talking to customers, and if they won't do it fire them.
  • Control not talking to train crews. What's GSMR for? We solved the problem of 'control' talking to aircraft anywhere in the world in the airline industry 20 years ago. Why is it so difficult for railways over a few miles? If they won't talk, find replacement employees who will.
  • Signallers not knowing how to use GSMR general broadcast. Teach them. And if they can't master it, fire them or move them to a job they can manage.
  • DO NOT TRAVEL - simply preposterous at any time of day other than first thing because some people will already have started their journey or already be at work. They have no choice but to travel.
  • Station staff lacking PTS. Train them - don't care if it costs, because it's worth it to avoid these sorts of problems (or it would be if the railway was a business that could fail with enough adverse publicity). Do it after normal working hours if needs be. Make it a condition of new station staff contracts, and if they can't meet the medical requirements don't hire them.
  • Accusing customers of trespassing if they detrain. Appaling. So I pay you to use your services, you fail to deliver, and then you try to persecute me for walking away from your business. Madness. If you'd have sorted the problem before your customers got edgy, or at least kept them fully informed, the problem probably wouldn't have arisen.
It really saddens me that the railways still seem to be run for the convenience / in the interests of the industry and the staff, rather than the customers who effectively pay the wages of those who work within it. Until this attitude changes, there will be little improvement. This incident - and the reaction of railway staff responding to this topic - seems to point to the idea that the railway still behaves like it is always right, and the customer is always wrong. It's about time it started finding reasons to do the right thing for customers, rather than hide behind excuses.
As you ought to realise the way things work nowadays staff are not allowed to use their initiative ,I know you are frustated but put yourself in their position,if something goes wrong who gets the blame. Front line staff are on the side of the passenger and are just as p'd off with manage ment decisions but they know what is safe and what isn't. Give them a break and take it up with management and above.
 

Bromley boy

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I kept a fairly close eye on the website and it most definitely was not the message.

In mid to late afternoon the message - for the Sevenoaks and beyond services at least - was to travel as soon as possible, which with the benefit of hindsight turned out have been the worst possible outcome.

Well I can assure you it most definitely was the (quite sensible) message. I took the below screenshot at 1536 on Friday to send to a friend who was working in London and intending to commute home from Victoria.

7F9A48AA-F257-486F-8005-FFAD5D983496.jpeg
 

Bromley boy

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Not sure that you really need to get so high and mighty. There's some valid issues there that need to be addressed.

The post Llanigraham is referring to is written in the most insulting way possible. Extremely poor form considering a number of railstaff have come onto this forum to discuss things constructively. They have certainly not come on here to be insulted.
 

AlterEgo

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The answer is blindly obvious. I soil myself. Did you think I would egress ?

Not a lot of people would choose to s**t their pants over staying on a train in an urban area where civilisation is about 50 yards walk.

I don’t disagree that walking on or near the line unauthorised is very dangerous, but people are people, and I think there needs to be a bit more pragmatism involved.

Clearly something went badly wrong on that train.
 

sefton

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So what do you want to happen, how are you going to resource it and how are you going to pay for it?

It is not what I want but what the train companies should be doing already.

The train companies know that their customers will only stay on-board for a certain amount of time, that amount of time depending on a number of factors but primarily the amount of information they are receiving and the proximity to a station.

Train companies have a responsibility for the safe operation of the railway and if they know something unsafe will take place during an incident then they have a responsibility to mitigate that risk. They cannot simply say "not our problem".
 

EM2

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It is not what I want but what the train companies should be doing already.

The train companies know that their customers will only stay on-board for a certain amount of time, that amount of time depending on a number of factors but primarily the amount of information they are receiving and the proximity to a station.
So let's look back to the Woking de-training in 2011, when customers said they were getting announcements from the driver every five to fifteen minutes, and they still decide to prise open the doors and get out.
Train companies have a responsibility for the safe operation of the railway and if they know something unsafe will take place during an incident then they have a responsibility to mitigate that risk. They cannot simply say "not our problem".
How do they *know*? Just because something has happened in the past, it doesn't mean it will again. And when it does happen, there are steps taken to resolve it. What was being done was perfectly safe, and would have almost certainly got things moving, until someone took matters into their own hands, bailed out of the train, and buggered it up for everyone else.
 

Leo1961

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Clearly something went badly wrong on that train.

As an observer of human nature, in all of its glories and failures, I think that what went wrong was inevitable, but was not on that train at all. Any set of rules, irrespective of how long they have taken to mature, will never take into account a changing world with all of its foibles.

Rules need to be able to be overruled if the situation demands. And I venture to suggest that this was one such occasion.

There needs to be a procedure to cope with these situations. One which, I suggest, does not exist at the moment.
 

ComUtoR

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Not a lot of people would choose to s**t their pants over staying on a train in an urban area where civilisation is about 50 yards walk.

It's an easy choice for me. 750v DC up my butt or poo down my leg.

I don’t disagree that walking on or near the line unauthorised is very dangerous, but people are people, and I think there needs to be a bit more pragmatism involved.

Totally agree

Clearly something went badly wrong on that train.

Not just on that train, on others too. Less we forget the impact an egress caused. Lots of things went wrong and nobody is denying that. Lots could have and should have been done and hindsight is wonderful. Until the report comes out and a full and independent investigation finished everything is hearsay and conjecture. I'm sure my actions as a Driver would be different and I'm sure there are Signalers reading that would have made a different decision. We have the luxury of hindsight, those on the ground didn't.

My only concern is that of my passengers and I cannot promote any unsafe action that would lead to a serious accident and endanger lives. Too many here are supporting egressing onto live running lines. I will stand against that every time. Please listen and please act safe out there. Not just for yourselves but for once, think of others and the impact your actions cause.
 

fowler9

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I would agree that is poor service.

However I would be very, very surprised if a DOO driver at Lewisham didn't make an announcement if delayed for any significant length of time. Even forgetting about customer service for a minute, even the most disinterested driver does not want passengers to start egressing!

I've heard second hand that at least one of the drivers involved was virtually pleading with passengers not to egress!
Yeah. Things would have to be in pretty poor shape before I even considered making my own way off a train. I mean like zombie apocalypse. There is no stopping some people, did you see that guy who let himself of a planes overwing exit.
 

Kettledrum

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So let's look back to the Woking de-training in 2011, when customers said they were getting announcements from the driver every five to fifteen minutes, and they still decide to prise open the doors and get out.
How do they *know*? Just because something has happened in the past, it doesn't mean it will again.

In the Woking 2011 incident, passengers again were kept trapped in a train FOR HOURS yards from a station.

Now the same thing has happened again and it was entirely forseeable. How many times does it need to happen before we realise we need a better (and safer) plan.
 

6Gman

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As far as I can gather, the train behind was stuck for about 30 to 40 mins behind the failure, the train ahead did move a bit, and I assume it was though would allow the rear train to draw forward, but stopped again, so alhtough it had only been at a stand for about 30 / 40 mins, a passenger decided to get off, resulting in the inevitable Emergency Call to the Signaller, and being an Emergency Call stopping all other trains in the area, once you have someone wandering around on an open rail situation, things can only get worse, as the next will be an Emergency Isolation, that of course will make all trains dark and cold, and possibly make others jump ship from other trains, so seemingly the actions of one person...........

If this is an accurate account (and I have no reason to doubt it) then the share of blame would look like TOC 5%, NR 5%, impatient passenger 90%.

But perhaps we should all wait for the RAIB to establish the facts of the incident.
 

DarloRich

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Was it silly and dangerous for people to bail out of the trains concerned? Yes. Was it an understandable reaction? Yes. I think we all have a period after which we might decide to bail out. For us with knowledge it might be longer than the rest of the herd.

Not just on that train, on others too. Less we forget the impact an egress caused. Lots of things went wrong and nobody is denying that. Lots could have and should have been done and hindsight is wonderful. Until the report comes out and a full and independent investigation finished everything is hearsay and conjecture. I'm sure my actions as a Driver would be different and I'm sure there are Signalers reading that would have made a different decision. We have the luxury of hindsight, those on the ground didn't.

Agreed - it is very easy to wail and day more must be done, there must be better communications, there should be more staff etc. Perhaps people could provide some examples of what that improvement looks like and how it can be delivered. I assume this train had one member of staff on it. There is a limit to what one person can absorb and deliver information wise.

In the Woking 2011 incident, passengers again were kept trapped in a train FOR HOURS yards from a station.

Now the same thing has happened again and it was entirely forseeable. How many times does it need to happen before we realise we need a better (and safer) plan.

OK - what does a better and safer plan look like?
 

swj99

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And you have absolutely no idea how Railway Staffs hands are tied. You fill me and probably the majority of TrainCrew who frequent these forums with contempt for....You! Because of your p**s Poor attitude.

That is the most insulting, ill-informed, ill-mannered and preposterous post here!

You have proved that you haven't read any of the comments of the PROFFESIONAL railway workers here and none absolutely nothing about how and why the railways do things.

And it's precisely comments like these which show the railway industry in the worst light possible, and do little or nothing to offer solutions to what is clearly a very serious problem.

The post Llanigraham is referring to is written in the most insulting way possible. Extremely poor form considering a number of railstaff have come onto this forum to discuss things constructively. They have certainly not come on here to be insulted.

I wouldn't call it insulting. I think he raises some very valid points.
 

Robertj21a

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The post Llanigraham is referring to is written in the most insulting way possible. Extremely poor form considering a number of railstaff have come onto this forum to discuss things constructively. They have certainly not come on here to be insulted.

I never suggested the original post was perfect, but nor was the response from Llanigraham There are some serious issues being raised as a result of a fiasco that clearly involves some potentially silly passengers - but also some potentially silly (in)actions by rail staff. It is to the credit of many of the rail staff on this thread who have contributed their knowledge in a positive and constructive manner but, inevitably, much frustration remains - by them - and by passengers.
The situation at Lewisham was, naturally, unique to that day and time. However, I would guess that a train stranded just outside a station platform (anywhere) is far from a unique occurrence - in which case there will be documented Rules and Procedures to be followed. It *appears* that the timescale involved in implementing these procedures at Lewisham was considerably longer than many passengers would feel is acceptable. That needs to be investigated (and streamlined if at all possible).
As we've all read during the course of this thread, there's also been a number of inter-related issues that might benefit from a thorough review.
 

Bromley boy

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I wouldn't call it insulting. I think he raises some very valid points.

Well let's have a look at some highlights!

in which employees seem to think they can still get away with not doing what's right 'because it's more than my job's worth' or because the rulebook doesn't permit it.

Absolute pig ignorance on display here. The reason railstaff follow the rule book is because they don't want to end up unemployed or in prison. The above statement could only ever have been written by someone who doesn't carry such a burden in the day to day job the do.

PA broken - train driver needs to get off their ass and go back to the coaches to tell passengers what's happening. Set mandatory intervals for drivers talking to customers, and if they won't do it fire them.

Again. Ignorance. The trains involved were comprised of separate units with no way to move between them.

Signallers not knowing how to use GSMR general broadcast. Teach them. And if they can't master it, fire them or move them to a job they can manage.

Ignorant, insulting rant. Where is the evidence signallers don't know how to use their equipment?

This incident just fills me with utter contempt for those who work on the railway

And those who work on the railway begin to feel contempt for the ever rising % of passengers who act like total idiots and put themselves in danger!

Overall there are undoubtedly lessons to be learned and perhaps organisational issues to be addressed, but coming on here and baselessly insulting staff is a bit like blaming hard working front line staff for the failings of the NHS.
 
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Until the report comes out and a full and independent investigation finished everything is hearsay and conjecture

Let me guess: "mistakes were made, lessons have been learned, measures have been put in place to prevent a re-occurrence"?

Not a criticism of the railways per se, it's just the usual bull**** trotted out by all management in the UK when something goes badly wrong.
 
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Antman

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Perhaps they would have in due course but were pre-empted by the person who decided to self-evacuate?

Which I think most people would have done in the circumstances?

Just how long does it take to get this authorisation? Surely it's no different to a train crawling up to another one in a termini station?
 

EM2

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In the Woking 2011 incident, passengers again were kept trapped in a train FOR HOURS yards from a station.

Now the same thing has happened again and it was entirely forseeable. How many times does it need to happen before we realise we need a better (and safer) plan.
What do you want? You say there has to be more information to stop people bailing. People had information, they still bailed.
 

Bromley boy

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I never suggested the original post was perfect, but nor was the response from Llanigraham

The tone of the original post was unnecessarily aggressive and offensive. Calling for people to be sacked etc. when there's absolutely no evidence that any individual staff member concerned has done anything but their best in a very difficult situation for all concerned.

The situation at Lewisham was, naturally, unique to that day and time. However, I would guess that a train stranded just outside a station platform (anywhere) is far from a unique occurrence - in which case there will be documented Rules and Procedures to be followed. It *appears* that the timescale involved in implementing these procedures at Lewisham was considerably longer than many passengers would feel is acceptable. That needs to be investigated (and streamlined if at all possible).

I would agree but I would also observe that decisions such as evacuating a train cannot simply be made by those on the ground. Believe me in this kind of incident the staff in the thick of it want a swift, favourable resolution to the situation just as much as the passengers do!

Undoubtedly things happened too slowly in this instance but this failure is a systemic/organisational one rather than being down to any particular individuals. And it's becoming abundantly clear that the length of the incident was mostly due to repeated egresses.

As we've all read during the course of this thread, there's also been a number of inter-related issues that might benefit from a thorough review.

Agreed.
 

muz379

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Despite being a privatised industry, this incident merely seems to reinforce the idea that the railways still behaves like a nationalised industry, in which employees seem to think they can still get away with not doing what's right 'because it's more than my job's worth' or because the rulebook doesn't permit it

Serious question here, you seemed to allude later on in your post that aviation had solved all its woes .

About 18 months ago I was sat on a plane on the tarmac for over 2 hours , the doors had been closed . Passengers began to feel somewhat disgruntled at the fact that all the captain had to say every 15 minutes was that there was no update to the situation . Some passengers asked for some water . The cabin crew said that they could not open any of the trolleys because of rules about duty free inside them . A couple of passengers approached the cockpit to ask the captain which he refused to leave citing "security concerns " My question is , in this situation would us passengers on board that aircraft been justified to force our way off the plane ?

If that is the case and if the failed train had cleared the end of P4 sufficiently the lack of a decision to make an emergency permissive move into P4 of that 376 unit should be a key part of the enquiry.
Sorry to request clarification, but am I understanding this correctly:
The failed train had just departed Lewisham.....and was stranded?
Another train was stuck at a red signal just outside Lewisham and was not allowed into the vacant platform, because the failed train had not cleared the signal?

So, in an emergency situation, why wasn't the train at the red signal allowed into the platform, the passengers de-trained, and then that unit used to rescue the stranded train that had failed?
Had the juice not been turned off to de ice . Perhaps the NR staff got there to de ice before the authorisation was sought or recieved for the train to pass the signal at danger to enter the platform . Obviously once they had begun de icing it would add unnecessary delay to have them stop to switch the power back on to allow the train to pass the signal .

Some quite staggering generalisations and insults to railway staff there.

Well as apparently I lack empathy and humility and should probably be fired I'll just doff my cap to you and say that you, the customer are always right. We'll all just forget that railways are complex networks to run and to be run safely there has to be a set of rules in place.

It's your nirvana of private enterprise and the the franchises desire to profit maximise and enhance shareholder value that is leading to a relentless drive to cut costs and reduce staffing across the railway.

I'm the first to admit when the railway gets things wrong but railways aren't supermarkets or restaurants.

But hey Sir or Madam, you are right, so I'll leave it there.
+1
 

ComUtoR

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Not a criticism of the railways per se, it's just the usual bull**** trotted out by all management in the UK when something goes badly wrong.

Preaching to the choir here.

We can discuss the RAIB and what their powers are and are not when the report is published. Please note that this will be an independent report and not 'Management UK' I highly suggest reading some RAIB reports as they can be very enlightening.
 

Daz28

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All this talk about permissive working ignores a few facts which ruled that out as an option.

For the first half hour or so all trains were stuck with power on, with the possible exception of the one trying to exit Lewisham and head to Blackheath, which was stuck because it couldn’t draw power. Whether it had enough power for heating, lighting and PA is not clear.

NR arrived on scene and switched off the power for that line only to enable them to clear the ice from the conductor rail. At this point the train behind would not have been able to move forward to assist. The expectation was that within 20 minutes the ice would be clear and all trains would be on the move again.
Unfortunately before the hour was up, someone detained themselves. It is not clear which train this was, but once there was a passenger loose on the tracks, the power had to be cut to all lines through Lewisham.

This caused the delay to be extended, whilst the train in question was resecured and the passenger confirmed to be safe. It also meant the passengers remaining in that train were now getting very cold as the doors were open and heating off.

This extended delay led to more passengers detraining, further extending the delay.

SE Twitter were getting quite desperate, pleading with passengers to stay on trains. Each tine they were ready to resume power, someone else jumped off, resetting the situation. This spread to more trains in the queue, causing the area affected to extend, leaving more trains in the dark.

The total delay would probably have been up to an hour had it not been passengers detraining. Instead the trains at the back of the queue were heading towards a four hour delay by the time everything was moving again.

I imagine it was a really tricky situation to manage. They were probably 20minutes away from getting everyone moving for about three hours.
 

Robertj21a

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[Edited]
I would agree but I would also observe that decisions such as evacuating a train cannot simply be made by those on the ground. Believe me in this kind of incident the staff in the thick of it want a swift, favourable resolution to the situation just as much as the passengers do!

Undoubtedly things happened too slowly in this instance but this failure is a systemic/organisational one rather than being down to any particular individuals. And it's becoming abundantly clear that the length of the incident was mostly due to repeated egresses.

My query wasn't directed at any individual, rather the system and/or the management who *appeared* to take too long to appreciate the frustrations of the passengers. Similarly, I wasn't looking for staff to organise a safe egress, I was looking for a procedure that would have allowed the train to safely enter the platform prior to passengers taking their own action. Everything just seemed to take too long. It would be interesting to learn when GOLD became involved but I guess we'll never know.
 

Wychwood93

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What do you want? You say there has to be more information to stop people bailing. People had information, they still bailed.
This is not directed at EM2 by the way, more the fact that Woking 2011 and what will now become 'Lewisham 2018' keep cropping up - several mentions of the words 'lessons' and 'learned' also. What has changed in 7 years? Odd bits of blame in general to management - you always need someone to blame. The use of initiative by staff appears to be an issue - mentions of court, jail etc. if they use it. This is most likely more than a little misguided - the railway, and management thereof, does actually appreciate initiative. Not quite the Orwellian 'good initiative good' vs. 'bad initiative bad', but somewhere along those lines - in other words, if you are going to use your own initiative to sort something and you know it will work and be of help then do it! Just make sure nobody dies along the way (!) - joking apart, you will have tried and indicated you are not a 'bot'.

With regard to egress of the unauthorised nature in the South, open the door and see if there is a juice rail there, if there is, then cross over the vestibule and open the other one. If near a station the juice is in the middle, for obvious reasons.
 

Bromley boy

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My query wasn't directed at any individual, rather the system and/or the management who *appeared* to take too long to appreciate the frustrations of the passengers. Similarly, I wasn't looking for staff to organise a safe egress, I was looking for a procedure that would have allowed the train to safely enter the platform prior to passengers taking their own action. Everything just seemed to take too long. It would be interesting to learn when GOLD became involved but I guess we'll never know.

That’s fine - my issue isn’t with anything you’ve said, I have no problem with constructive discussion and debate - it was with the insulting tone of that previous post.

Although given a couple of recent posts it is sounding more and more like a problem occurred, good efforts were being made to rectify it within a short time and the egresses were what caused the incident to drag on as long as it did.
 

swj99

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Well let's have a look at some highlights!.........Absolute pig ignorance on display here. ........Ignorance. ..........Ignorant, insulting rant.. ........feel contempt for the ever rising % of passengers who act like total idiots .....
The only insults I can see in there are yours.
And it's not constructive.
 

edwin_m

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Since Southall and Ladbroke Grove all trains have carried safety posters. While these do advise that staying on board is normally the safest course of action, they also give some instructions on how to leave the train if necessary, and this could be considered as encouragement to do so. I wonder if the wording should be beefed up, for example something like "There are many dangers on the track, such as moving trains, live electric rails, moving rails that can trap feet, and slip/trip hazards. Please remain on the train unless instructed to leave by railway staff or if there is an immediate danger such as fire and you cannot safely move to another part of the train."

I think the big question we don't have an answer to here is what announcements the person who first left the train heard before doing so. From what I gather from previous posts, what should have happened was that the driver on the train behind should have been informed that a train ahead was having problems with ice on the rails, Network Rail staff were ready to assist but would have to turn the power off for about half an hour to do so safely. Both drivers should then have passed this on to their passengers, warning of temporary loss of heating and some lighting, with updates (even if just "no more news but they are still working on it") every 10min or so or if the situation changed. I'm not sure whether adding a warning of the dangers of leaving the train would reduce or increase the risk of that happening. Possibly also those in charge should have considered whether it was worth drawing the second train and any others that could easily do so forward into platforms before the power was turned off, talking past signals if necessary.

If all this happened, including the PA working well enough and for long enough that everyone could hear the announcements, then I would say the first passenger to evacuate probably carries most of the blame (unless perhaps they had some sort of medical condition). If not then there is a failing somewhere on the railway's side, which shouldn't be blamed on an indvidual member of staff but should prompt some probing questions about the processes, technology and training needed to manage this sort of incident. There may be other lessons too, such as holding other trains back if there is an incident that might result in self evacuation, ideally at platforms and/or short of the area that would have to be isolated in emergency - but I guess that's going to be difficult in practice.
 
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