Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[ComUtoR]

Clearly I'm not advocating trespass (if that's what it was)

It was. We both know it.

There are too many people in this and other threads that are very much advocating and supporting the trespass onto the track which did endanger the lives of the individuals concerned. There are many excuses being touted. The issue is that it is a very stupid and dangerous thing to do. All it takes is a single person to make that initial decision to egress and it then starts a wave of people who follow because others are doing it. That group mentality gives a false sense of security and just increases the dangers involved. You and others in this thread are happy to be that first person to egress and justify your actions with little concern for other or any consequence whatsoever.

The action of a single individual snowballed into a disaster. The impact of the juice going off knocked the same situation to other trains.

- I'm saying that it's impossible to stop people doing this, especially when they can see the station and they want to get home. I know that it's technically trespassing,

The train batteries should be used to maintain PA, lighting and heat for as long as possible. Particularly the PA to KEEP PASSENGERS INFORMED.

There is always going to be a situation where the battery will fail or simply expire. How big and how long do you want them to last ? How much are people prepared to pay for a complete retrofit of batteries ? Is any of it even possible ?

Too often the driver isn't given enough information to be able to keep passengers calm and informed. Given that the Hampshire 13 hour stranding had been alll over the news that morning, when the Lewisham passengers heard nothing,

I wasn't on the train so I am not prepared to state if announcements were done or the state of the PA. There has been no reports of what was happening on board. Everyone has jumped to that conclusion.

I would however, agree that we are not informed. SG typically garners a 'wait' response and nothing more and we are pretty much sitting there with no information. Should that be changed ? Absolutely. Is it ? Yes. My issue is then the problem that regardless of the number of announcements that are made, people will ignore them (feel free to read the announcement thread) or simple make their own decision as to their behavior. No matter how many times you tell people to stay on the train. Someone, like you, will still decide to egress because they believe they are in the right or simply know better.

I suspect they were concerned they'd be left to rot until daylight. If the current batteries aren't up to the job, fit bigger batteries (weight penalty, I know).

And then bigger ones, and then bigger ones... etc.

The real solution is to find a way to stop 3rd rail trains getting stuck like this in the 1st place. Perhaps a small diesel engine or battery backup for "last mile power" a la Class 88 might be a way forward.

When each signal section contains a train, how do you get the rescue train there ? A solution could be to heat every cm of third rail so that it can't ice over. They could fit de-icing fluid to every single unit rather than just the mainline fleet, fit every single train with snow ploughs and ice breaker shoes etc etc. The monumental cost will be passed to the passenger. Any solution just lives in the realm of fantasy unfortunately.

 

[Antman]

This shouldn't turn into a blame game, it was exceptional circumstances and hardly something that is likely to occur on a regular basis.

I don't see what more Southeastern could have reasonably done in the circumstances and I don't blame the passengers who decided to get off.

 

[furnessvale]

Replacing the 3rd rail with OHLE will never happen, but would it be possible to replace the 3rd rail with an under-running system like the DLR has? Expensive, but it would significantly improve safety and weather resistance?

Watching a video of a unit arcing like mad, the fitting of brushes to the ends of all units could be a cheaper option than wholesale rail replacement.

 

[The Box Photter]

It was. We both know it.

There are too many people in this and other threads that are very much advocating and supporting the trespass onto the track which did endanger the lives of the individuals concerned. There are many excuses being touted. The issue is that it is a very stupid and dangerous thing to do. All it takes is a single person to make that initial decision to egress and it then starts a wave of people who follow because others are doing it. That group mentality gives a false sense of security and just increases the dangers involved. You and others in this thread are happy to be that first person to egress and justify your actions with little concern for other or any consequence whatsoever.

The action of a single individual snowballed into a disaster. The impact of the juice going off knocked the same situation to other trains.





There is always going to be a situation where the battery will fail or simply expire. How big and how long do you want them to last ? How much are people prepared to pay for a complete retrofit of batteries ? Is any of it even possible ?



I wasn't on the train so I am not prepared to state if announcements were done or the state of the PA. There has been no reports of what was happening on board. Everyone has jumped to that conclusion.

I would however, agree that we are not informed. SG typically garners a 'wait' response and nothing more and we are pretty much sitting there with no information. Should that be changed ? Absolutely. Is it ? Yes. My issue is then the problem that regardless of the number of announcements that are made, people will ignore them (feel free to read the announcement thread) or simple make their own decision as to their behavior. No matter how many times you tell people to stay on the train. Someone, like you, will still decide to egress because they believe they are in the right or simply know better.




And then bigger ones, and then bigger ones... etc.



When each signal section contains a train, how do you get the rescue train there ? A solution could be to heat every cm of third rail so that it can't ice over. They could fit de-icing fluid to every single unit rather than just the mainline fleet, fit every single train with snow ploughs and ice breaker shoes etc etc. The monumental cost will be passed to the passenger. Any solution just lives in the realm of fantasy unfortunately.

Frankly your posts are simply apologies for the abject failure of the TOC and Network Rail. Stop bleating about things being "too difficult" or "can't be done because we've never tried that before". To expect a different outcome by simply doing the same thing time after time is madness. Why can't the 3rd rail pick up shoes be heated? Has anyone studied the feasibility of heating the 3rd rail at key junctions/known trouble spots? If they have and you can provide the results showing it's impossible, then lets see it. AS these severe weather events aren't that frequent or prolonged, the heating doesn't have to go on in October and stay on until May.

Demonising the passengers for acting in an understandible way just shows the contempt in which the rail industry holds its customers.

 

[amcluesent]

Southeastern should explain how many, if any, de-icing runs had been made. No excuse for 3rd-rail to be left to freeze, given the forecasts

 

[47802]

Then you would be in the wrong. Are you advocating that passengers should be allowed to self evacuate onto the the track whenever they feel ? Are you also justifying that it is acceptable to ignore the TOCs instruction and justifying trespass ? Are you happy to accept the responsibility when someone dies or gets juiced up ?



I would agree. What would you suggest is the right approach and is allowing self evacuation really a benefit to the passenger ?

I think its fair to say that rightly or wrongly I have always been fairly contemptuous towards the Railway Trespass Laws in this country, would I self evacuate from a Third Rail Train probably not but then I probably know the dangers more than the average passenger, would I self evacuate from a Non Third Rail Train in those circumstances possibly.

When I was stuck on a 225 set years ago for 4 hours there were certainly people getting close to that and probably would have done if it wasn't for the fact the train was in the middle of nowhere and the BTP turned up.

 

[Bromley boy]

Southeastern should explain how many, if any, de-icing runs had been made. No excuse for 3rd-rail to be left to freeze, given the forecasts

For one thing Network Rail run de icing trains, not SE.

For another, freezing rain was widespread yesterday - certainly not a matter of third rail being “left to freeze”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a good reason why all trains need toilets, FWIW. If I needed it that much and there was no sign of movement, I'd pull the release and go in the bushes, not wet myself. If there was a toilet I probably wouldn't unless something else got dire.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is there any explanation for why the movements of any of these services are not shown on the likes of RTT, Raildar etc. after the incident began? Was the reporting system down? If so, how come the NR app people were using on the trains affected still has that info?

 

[ComUtoR]

Demonising the passengers for acting in an understandible way just shows the contempt in which the rail industry holds its customers.

Ahh the insults.

I haven't apologized for the TOC, not once. The passengers trespassed that is a fact. Sorry if you do not like that. That then caused a huge knock on effect. Sorry if you don't like that.

I'll happily discuss where the faults with the TOC and the Drivers lie. I have no issue with that and as George correctly states, this shouldn't be a blame game.

These kind of situations will continue to occur because there are those that will egress regardless and support others who do. Please please please for your own safety and that of the other passengers and other trains. Do not egress from the train onto a live running line.

 

[Bromley boy]

Why can't the 3rd rail pick up shoes be heated? Has anyone studied the feasibility of heating the 3rd rail at key junctions/known trouble spots? If they have and you can provide the results showing it's impossible, then lets see it. AS these severe weather events aren't that frequent or prolonged, the heating doesn't have to go on in October and stay on until May.

But much like your rather silly kneejerk suggestion yesterday about replacing the entire third rail network with OHLE, what makes you think these “obvious” solutions haven’t been looked into and discounted by the industry either because they’re ineffective, or work but simply aren’t cost effective?

Do you honestly think you are the first person to have thought of these ideas?

 

[ComUtoR]

Southeastern should explain how many, if any, de-icing runs had been made. No excuse for 3rd-rail to be left to freeze, given the forecasts

All units capable of de-icing were instructed to use it. Early turns at my depot started with a ghosting run and ghosting was done overnight too. By around midday I was arcing like crazy and services started to fail. The second you sit on a signal allows the ice to storm in. It was a losing battle from the start tbh. Something was done, just not enough.

 

[Bromley boy]

This is a good reason why all trains need toilets,

That is a difficult on. Not mention certain conditions (Chron’s disease for one) where sufferers cannot be too far from a toilet in case they suffer an attack.

For them a toiletless train is a major impediment even in normal operation.

 

[The Box Photter]

But much like your rather silly kneejerk suggestion yesterday about replacing the entire third rail network with OHLE, what makes you think these “obvious” solutions haven’t been looked into and discounted by the industry either because they’re ineffective, or work but simply aren’t cost effective?

Do you honestly think you are the first person to have thought of these ideas?

I don't know. You obviously have more in depth knowledge than I do, please enlighten us. I suspect that the reason we're still using 3rd rail is that sucessive governments since the end of WW2 have failed to spend enough on infrastructure to make it fit for use under modern conditions.

NR has no incentive to do anything because it's a bureocratic monolith which exists to subsidise and justify itself. TOCs have no incentive because there's no profit in it (NR attributable delay repayments sweeten their deals), DfT are only concerned about making the seating as uncomfortable as possible and micro managing the whole shooting match and the Government is paralysed by Brexit and in-fighting.

I've never encountered a more insular and suspicious industry than the UK railway industry. Anyone suggesting that new things should be tried is automatically distrusted, pilloried and ridiculed.

And, how cost effective to the UK as a whole is having passengers unable to get to and from work because of a few millimetres of ice on the conductor rail? As the bean counters know, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is a difficult on. Not mention certain conditions (Chron’s disease for one) where sufferers cannot be too far from a toilet in case they suffer an attack.

For them a toiletless train is a major impediment even in normal operation.

I've generally been of the view that the likes of Merseyrail don't need them, but this incident does raise an issue. I have an irritatingly small bladder so "go" before I board, but 3 hours could be a problem even in normal circumstances, and the cold has a habit of making things worse. Now imagine me when I'm in my 70s...

It also raises the issue that they could do with a manual "dump" function or battery power - as if you can't flush them they soon become useless.

 

[neilmc]

Third rail is a "cheap and nasty" solution to facilitating an intensive commuter service, devised at a time when life was cheap and technology had greater constraints. The fact that the system has expanded rather than being scrapped says all you need to know about the railway's genuine desire to put public safety paramount - and that of its employees, and wildlife.

 

[Railcar]

In the London area, how many managers would be allocated each day to stations? By managers I mean people other than platform or booking office staff - I'm talking about people who can assess a situation and make decisions, or call up the managerial chain to feed back problems?

I ask because this situation and similar situations seem to lack anyone on the railway side who can assess the situation and take the initiative. No-one in a warm coat out there looking after passengers rather than sitting in a warm office.

From observation, even at major stations like East Croydon, there seems to be no-one identifiable as a manager when things go wrong. They may be doing something terribly important elsewhere but looking after passengers is part of the job. Is there still such a job as a Station Manager?

 

[The Box Photter]

In the London area, how many managers would be allocated each day to stations? By managers I mean people other than platform or booking office staff - I'm talking about people who can assess a situation and make decisions, or call up the managerial chain to feed back problems?

I ask because this situation and similar situations seem to lack anyone on the railway side who can assess the situation and take the initiative. No-one in a warm coat out there looking after passengers rather than sitting in a warm office.

From observation, even at major stations like East Croydon, there seems to be no-one identifiable as a manager when things go wrong. They may be doing something terribly important elsewhere but looking after passengers is part of the job. Is there still such a job as a Station Manager?

The managers are all sitting fat and happy in warm control centres looking at CCTV monitors.

 

[goblinuser]

Third rail is a "cheap and nasty" solution to facilitating an intensive commuter service, devised at a time when life was cheap and technology had greater constraints. The fact that the system has expanded rather than being scrapped says all you need to know about the railway's genuine desire to put public safety paramount - and that of its employees, and wildlife.

I completely agree, it is an outdated, dangerous system which should be replaced.
The reason given for not replacing it, other than cost, is clearances in tunnels and bridges. But as we have seen on the GOBLIN, the EU rules are actuallly flexible and have exceptions, and also the wires work at low clearances without harming anyone.

 

[uww11x]

Ahh the insults.

I haven't apologized for the TOC, not once. The passengers trespassed that is a fact. Sorry if you do not like that. That then caused a huge knock on effect. Sorry if you don't like that.

I'll happily discuss where the faults with the TOC and the Drivers lie. I have no issue with that and as George correctly states, this shouldn't be a blame game.

These kind of situations will continue to occur because there are those that will egress regardless and support others who do. Please please please for your own safety and that of the other passengers and other trains. Do not egress from the train onto a live running line.

Folk aren't gonna just sit there with no Bog or hear for 3 hours when the station is next to them are they?

 

[theageofthetra]

The New forest trains toilets stopped working when power was lost to the train. They need power to flush and refill. The CET tanks may have been full as well and the fresh water tanks empty after being in use so long.

If managed properly one could have been left manually opened or forced open and that coach designated as the 'dirty' toilet area. For the blokes collect as many plastic bottles as possible or use bins and let them wee in those to keep that toilet clear for 'bigger' issues!

It's not difficult it just takes some basic common sense and crisis management skills.

If staff don't posses those basic skills I would question why they are employed in any safety critical role.

I would also have moved them all into one/two coaches so that their body heat was combined if the temperature was dangerously low and pooled any clothing resources available for those most vulnerable (elderly/babies etc)

Perhaps that did happen - I would certainly hope so over 13 hours

 

[ComUtoR]

In the London area, how many managers would be allocated each day to stations? By managers I mean people other than platform or booking office staff - I'm talking about people who can assess a situation and make decisions, or call up the managerial chain to feed back problems?

For this situation or in general ?

We had disruption agents in key locations. They made decisions to help resource Drivers directly on the ground. Driver Managers were spread across depots and, I believe, 24hr coverage was implemented. Gold command was implemented with the Ops Managers coordinating with Network Rail.

 

[theageofthetra]

I was on the 17.10 Charing Cross - Ashford (12-car ex-Southern 375) last night which was the first train behind the train stuck behind the one struggling to go up the flyover from Tanners Hill Junction (I think that was a Charing Cross - Gravesend train but will check).

The 17.10 left Charing Cross 14 minutes late and came to a halt at Tanners Hill Junction. The train in front had physically cleared the junction (according to the driver) but was still within the signal overlap. It was reported as going extremely slowly up the hill because of ice on the third rail. At the time we thought this would take a little while, but eventually make it. It was only later we heard that a passenger on that train had pulled the emergency alarm too.

I can't remember when the juice was switched off, but it was when passengers started to detrain from other trains. After around another hour (maybe less) the lights and heating went as the battery power was switched off too. Our train got rather cold. From about 20.45 there was expectation (from tweets and various other messages) that the juice would go back on at 21.00, providing that no more people got off trains and on to tracks. But they continued to do this so it was not until 21.42 that the juice was switched back on. After several attempts the driver managed to get the train to restart (had to build up air pressure, shoes wouldn't go down at first, computer wouldn't reboot etc.) The middle four carriages of the 12-car train would not get power at all, so we proceeded from 21.54 with those in darkness and with no heat. We had just received the green signal a few minutes before, but I have no idea when the train fouling Tanners Hill Junction was removed (though at least by 21.45, as trains were coming past in the other direction by then).

What I haven't mentioned is that morale was actually pretty good on the whole train. People got talking and were supportive and you could see it visibly making a difference, and reducing some people's anxiety. Others only looked at their phones, but it's each to their own. There was only one verging-on-aggressive passenger (in coach 12, I was in coach 1), mostly as a result of drink. No-one attempted to detrain from this train, though that was probably helped by not being within visible sight of a station (we were in the brick retained-wall cutting between New Cross and St Johns, with a tunnel at one end at least).

We got to Tonbridge at 22.58. Exactly 300 minutes late. An additional train was laid on to Hastings.

All in all a trying experience for everyone (staff, passengers, BTP, Network Rail, emergency services etc.). People on or train were frustrated that other trains kept self-evacuating and this was delaying us getting going again. But spirit and camaraderie were good considering the circumstances. Thank you to all who sorted it out (obviously I would like it to have been much quicker, but understand why not).

I am also pretty glad I had the foresight to get some food and drink (shared with other passengers) from M&S at Charing Cross before getting on the train!

Glad to here you are ok and thanks for sharing your food.

Also shows again why I will never get on any form of transport without a drink and some emergency snack- you never know what can happen.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't know. You obviously have more in depth knowledge than I do, please enlighten us. I suspect that the reason we're still using 3rd rail is that sucessive governments since the end of WW2 have failed to spend enough on infrastructure to make it fit for use under modern conditions.

NR has no incentive to do anything because it's a bureocratic monolith which exists to subsidise and justify itself. TOCs have no incentive because there's no profit in it (NR attributable delay repayments sweeten their deals), DfT are only concerned about making the seating as uncomfortable as possible and micro managing the whole shooting match and the Government is paralysed by Brexit and in-fighting.

I've never encountered a more insular and suspicious industry than the UK railway industry. Anyone suggesting that new things should be tried is automatically distrusted, pilloried and ridiculed.

And, how cost effective to the UK as a whole is having passengers unable to get to and from work because of a few millimetres of ice on the conductor rail? As the bean counters know, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

To be fair there is a lot of truth in the statements you’ve made above about the failings of the industry (or at least how it is structured).

Unfortunately “a few millimetres or ice on the conductor rail” is one of those things that sounds trivial (a la “leaves on the line”) but is a very big problem with no obvious technical solution. Freezing rain (ie rain which freezes immediately on contact with a metal surface) is particularly difficult to deal with, however many dedicated de-icing trains are run.

Generally we have to keep this in perspective. Apparently a number of factors conspired yesterday to create the events at Lewisham, but that doesn’t justify spending an amount perhaps equalling a significant % of the annual NHS budget on changing from one electrification system that works pretty well most of the time to another (admittedly more efficient one) which has its own pitfalls.

 

[Llanigraham]

The managers are all sitting fat and happy in warm control centres looking at CCTV monitors.

Do you insult everyone?

 

[theageofthetra]

I don't know. You obviously have more in depth knowledge than I do, please enlighten us. I suspect that the reason we're still using 3rd rail is that sucessive governments since the end of WW2 have failed to spend enough on infrastructure to make it fit for use under modern conditions.

NR has no incentive to do anything because it's a bureocratic monolith which exists to subsidise and justify itself. TOCs have no incentive because there's no profit in it (NR attributable delay repayments sweeten their deals), DfT are only concerned about making the seating as uncomfortable as possible and micro managing the whole shooting match and the Government is paralysed by Brexit and in-fighting.

I've never encountered a more insular and suspicious industry than the UK railway industry. Anyone suggesting that new things should be tried is automatically distrusted, pilloried and ridiculed.

And, how cost effective to the UK as a whole is having passengers unable to get to and from work because of a few millimetres of ice on the conductor rail? As the bean counters know, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Could not agree more. Root and branch change is required if anything is to improve.

 

[Bromley boy]

Could not agree more. Root and branch change is required if anything is to improve.

And are you happy for your fares/taxes to rise substantially to pay for this “root and branch change”? I doubt it.

 

[Bromley boy]

The fact that the system has expanded rather than being scrapped says all you need to know about the railway's genuine desire to put public safety paramount - and that of its employees, and wildlife

Again - cost!

And the continuous assertions that it is highly dangerous are incorrect. I seem to remember some figures shown on here recently showing it’s marginally more dangerous than OHLE for employees. But still “safe” overall - I’m far more likely to get killed driving to work than I am to be juiced.

EDIT: and there are some locations where it might be cost effective to (slightly) expand it. Uckfield and the Marshlink beingn 3rd rail electrified would remove the need for GTR to maintain a microfleet of 171s, for example.

 

[theironroad]

For this situation or in general ?

We had disruption agents in key locations. They made decisions to help resource Drivers directly on the ground. Driver Managers were spread across depots and, I believe, 24hr coverage was implemented. Gold command was implemented with the Ops Managers coordinating with Network Rail.

Please don't say 'disruption agent' is someone's official job title lol

 

[theironroad]

If managed properly one could have been left manually opened or forced open and that coach designated as the 'dirty' toilet area. For the blokes collect as many plastic bottles as possible or use bins and let them wee in those to keep that toilet clear for 'bigger' issues!

It's not difficult it just takes some basic common sense and crisis management skills.

If staff don't posses those basic skills I would question why they are employed in any safety critical role.

I would also have moved them all into one/two coaches so that their body heat was combined if the temperature was dangerously low and pooled any clothing resources available for those most vulnerable (elderly/babies etc)

Perhaps that did happen - I would certainly hope so over 13 hours

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Staff shouldn't be hired in safety critical roles because they are not telling men to urinate in the bins???? For real ? Lol

From the media reports, I believe that people did congregate in one carriage on at least one of the stranded NF trains.

If it was a 5 car 444 there are 4 toilets, 3 of which have manual doors so no need to force open.