Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[mmh]

This is a good reason why all trains need toilets, FWIW. If I needed it that much and there was no sign of movement, I'd pull the release and go in the bushes, not wet myself. If there was a toilet I probably wouldn't unless something else got dire.

I think a preferable approach for a man not wanting to wet himself would be to apologise to anyone in sight and relieve himself between the carriages

 

[mmh]

Just the same as regularly nowadays. Kentish Town. Pewsey. And others.

If the power is on they would have heat, light, and a working PA. The driver would have also been able to creep past the signal to platform at least part of the train.

If the power is already off what is the danger of "could have been killed".

If the PA fails, what is to stop the driver walking back trackside and shouting up to the passengers. JUST like used to happen with the guard in the old days.

The real stupidity is not the poor passengers, but the various managements who appear incapable of handling such events effectively.

"what is to stop the driver ... like used to happen with the guard ..."

I think there's a clue to the answer in the question there.

 

[mmh]

I think the cost of that would be prohibitive.

What is in my view needed is that, with a few possible exceptions like the Far North Line and S&C where other , there is a plan, including one which will work in severe weather, for the evacuation of any stuck train without toilets, or with an interior temperature less than say 15 degrees Celsius, within one hour, and any other stranded train within three hours.

For situations where this would not be possible, the train must carry an adequate amount of emergency equipment, which might include some kind of emergency toilet facility (bag and box based ones exist for use at festivals etc), an adequate quantity of water (I would say a 500ml bottle per seat would be a good starting point for this) and an adequate quantity of orange plastic mountain survival bags (one per seat as a minimum).

That doesn't make sense. The Far North Line and Settle & Carlisle as exceptions? Much of the disruption over the past few days has been far further south than where bad weather's usually expected.

A 500ml bottle of water per seat? That's 300 litres of water for an 11 car Pendolino. Where's that going to be stored?

 

[Bletchleyite]

See my post this morning addressing exactly this - at night, in a blizzard, in a forest, remote from a station on a longer-distance train that was not overcrowded is almost entirely different to a crammed commuter train with no toilets yards from a station in inner London.
As you seem to need it spelling out, my question is "how long would be reasonable in the circumstances that applied at the time?"

Precisely.

Near empty train in serious snowfall in the middle of nowhere with the heating and toilets working (as it was on one of the ones stuck in the New Forest) - being on the train much safer, evacuation may take many hours.

Full and standing train with no heating or toilets 50 yards from a platform end in built-up area - much safer off the train, no excuse for it taking more than an hour at most.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 500ml bottle of water per seat? That's 300 litres of water for an 11 car Pendolino. Where's that going to be stored?

76 bottles stored in each coach somewhere is hardly excessive. That's only 6 and a bit of the supermarket crates of 12, it would be really easy to have a cupboard to store that on something as big as a train. Indeed, on a Pendolino you will probably find that amount of water (one per seat in 1st, so about 40-something) available in normal circumstances in the self service fridge.

My point re the S&C/Far North was that it runs through remote countryside where an evacuation within 3 hours is likely not to be possible even in normal circumstances.

I'm sure I read that the DMUs used on those lines do carry that kind of kit as a matter of course, certainly the remote Scottish lines.

 

[physics34]

they clearly couldve cut the juice so THAT particular service could be evacuated, possibly in around 15 mins with the right amount of assistance/rescue crew considering the distance to the platform ramp. 3 hours is ridiculous.

 

[HSTEd]

Was the train stopped there because there is a signal protecting the platform entrance?

It seems like that signal might be a little counterproductive, if it wasn't there the train would likely have been able to coast into the platform.

 

[Chrisgr31]

So if people with no training or knowledge of the railway can do it, is it actually that difficult to train staff?

Although presumably only those who considered themselves capable of jumping down from the train to track, with their bag, self evacuated. I guess if te staff evacuate a train they have to gt everyone off, some of whom will have luggage they wont want to leave behind etc.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Some have suggested that London Underground would have done this better. Aren't there a couple of probably fairly essential differences with the underground?

The distance from the train to the track is smaller, but more importantly the knock on effect is likely to be much lower? In lots of places on the underground the evacuation will only affect one line, and the trains are smaller carrying less people.

This was in a location where it was affecting multiple lines, multiple routes with much longer trains?

 

[Robertj21a]

Unfortunately it already has become a blame game. I agree the circumstances were exceptional , but most incidents in which passengers get off a train onto the tracks are exceptional.

On one side of the blame argument are those calling passengers idiots, and on the other side, those saying the TOC could have managed the incident better. Sadly, blame alone will not cure the problem.
I believe the reality is that passengers will continue to get off broken down trains all the time TOCs fail to proactively manage the situation, and this includes reliable, consistent communication with passengers and prompt resolution of the problem. Poor and sometimes non existent communication and long delays are what seem to prompt people to take matters into their own hands.

Here's a link to the BBC news page when FCC were prosecuted and fined under the Health and Safety at Work Act.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24107132



I'm not sure about the unlawful detention angle. I'll ask around about that next week.

This one's not railway related, but .... Unlawful Detention - Lewis v HSBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14046113


Leaving a failed / stranded train is not trespassing.

From the CPS website, guidance for crown prosecutors.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_transport_offences/#trespass



The section 16 offence has a requirement that the alleged offender refuses to leave, however in the case of someone exiting a train and leaving the railway by the most direct route, the offence would not be complete as there would no element of refusal to leave.

A person who was legitimate passenger on the train at the point when they realized that it was not going anywhere, would not be a trespasser by simply leaving by the shortest route they could find to the nearest station, or off railway property.


I don't. Not when the train is stopped within sight of a station. Patience may or may not be a factor, and it's a matter for each individual on the train. I fully understand why people eventually take matters into their own hands in situations like this, and in some cases, I'm surprised people wait as long as they do before getting off.


What you're saying makes a lot of sense, however fool probably isn't the word I would have used. I think that person is a natural leader, who took the initiative. I would guess that for every person who makes a bold decision like that, there will be many, many more who wished they'd been a little more brave so they could have taken the decision first. I also think that as a country, we need more people like that to highlight inept bureaucracy and bring about some practical, joined up thinking, and an environment in which TOCs will choose to work proactively and prevent situations from deteriorating to the point where anyone would consider it necessary to detrain of their own initiative.


Yep, sounds about right.

Thank goodness, a post full of common sense. Well done that man !

To me, there are 2 fundamental issues:-

Communication to passengers (and amongst staff) is, consistently, a key issue that the railways fail to properly address.

Passengers are, nowadays, likely to de-train themselves after about 1 hour if a train is stranded, particularly if close to a station.

It's 2018, and high time that these very basic matters were sorted out properly. The TOCs/NR need to get their act together. It's no point in rail staff saying that passengers should simply stay on the train for 2,4,12 hours when they don't *appear* to be doing much to resolve the situation.

 

[furnessvale]

Well really we should be replacing traditional ballasted track with slab track anyway.
And that would provide a nice walkway for passengers.

Yes, lovely and flat in the 4ft. Hell, people could even cycle down it!

 

[RT4038]

If that's the advice then why the heck did Southeastern continue to run a service?

You can't tell people not to travel but continue running trains. That's bonkers.

The train company advises you not to travel. The implication therefore is that if you do, be prepared for delays, disruption etc. Quite simple really. Unfortunately the situation is not black or white - either trains not running, or trains running a perfect service.

 

[Antman]

If that's the advice then why the heck did Southeastern continue to run a service?

You can't tell people not to travel but continue running trains. That's bonkers.

Not at all, there will be people who need to get home. They were basically saying don't embark on a journey.

 

[sefton]

To me, there are 2 fundamental issues:-

Communication to passengers (and amongst staff) is, consistently, a key issue that the railways fail to properly address.

Passengers are, nowadays, likely to de-train themselves after about 1 hour if a train is stranded, particularly if close to a station.

So given that passengers are likely to take action themselves after an hour if the train company doesn't, then it would seem irresponsible for the train company to keep the power on the third rail after this point knowing what may happen.

 

[theageofthetra]

Some have suggested that London Underground would have done this better. Aren't there a couple of probably fairly essential differences with the underground?

The distance from the train to the track is smaller, but more importantly the knock on effect is likely to be much lower? In lots of places on the underground the evacuation will only affect one line, and the trains are smaller carrying less people.

This was in a location where it was affecting multiple lines, multiple routes with much longer trains?

So sub-surface stock is smaller? The full and standing (& on time) Uxbridge S stock I caught that night would have held easily as many as that 376.

Perhaps 4th rail is more resilient? Or just better maintained.

 

[theageofthetra]

Was the train stopped there because there is a signal protecting the platform entrance?

It seems like that signal might be a little counterproductive, if it wasn't there the train would likely have been able to coast into the platform.

It's protecting a major four way junction.

 

[Bromley boy]

So given that passengers are likely to take action themselves after an hour if the train company doesn't, then it would seem irresponsible for the train company to keep the power on the third rail after this point knowing what may happen.

So if a train is detained for an hour, even if no one has egressed, the power should be cut “just in case”, even though that means no other trains will be able to move?

I see this thread has gone down the usual rabbit hole of forum nonsense.

 

[theageofthetra]

they clearly couldve cut the juice so THAT particular service could be evacuated, possibly in around 15 mins with the right amount of assistance/rescue crew considering the distance to the platform ramp. 3 hours is ridiculous.

Evacuating over that junction is not easy- there was a far safer and easier option to the rear. Hopefully the investigation will look into why this wasn't explored.
What is odd is why it failed where it did. To get to that location the unit made it up one of the steeper gradients (most likely running under restricted aspects at low speed) on the UK rail network. Where it failed is on a slightly less steep downhill gradient, so unless the brakes had locked on it would easily have rolled into Lewisham at least enough to detrain from the front unit.

Again the report will hopefully explain what happened.

 

[LAX54]

So given that passengers are likely to take action themselves after an hour if the train company doesn't, then it would seem irresponsible for the train company to keep the power on the third rail after this point knowing what may happen.

An emergency isolation will knock out the power for miles around, making the situation even worse

 

[MichaelAMW]

Why didn't someone invoke this from the rule book:

"20.6 Emergency permissive working
You can also make a permissive movement when the signaller tells
you that in an emergency situation on a TCB or ERTMS line your
train is authorised to enter an occupied section to use a station
platform."

so that at least part of the train could be drawn into the platform for people to detrain?

 

[Highlandspring]

I'm sure I read that the DMUs used on those lines do carry that kind of kit as a matter of course, certainly the remote Scottish lines.

Well I’m afraid your certainty is misplaced because no ScotRail trains carry any additional emergency equipment or supplies on top of what would normally be provided (saw, rope, first aid kit, ladder etc). The loco hauled stock on the far north and west highland lines used to carry an ‘emergency box’ full of Mars bars(!) but that was done away with when the trains were. No foil blankets, no thousands of litres of water, no popup toilets.

 

[theageofthetra]

Why didn't someone invoke this from the rule book:

"20.6 Emergency permissive working
You can also make a permissive movement when the signaller tells
you that in an emergency situation on a TCB or ERTMS line your
train is authorised to enter an occupied section to use a station
platform."

so that at least part of the train could be drawn into the platform for people to detrain?

I hope the report looks into that. That said if the brakes were locked on/power off it probably wouldn't have helped in this case.

 

[LAX54]

Having seen the log, seems it was not quite as reported on the BBC,

 

[amcluesent]

Why didn't someone invoke this from the rule book:

I expect the RAIB report will find that 'Gold' command was in chaos

 

[LAX54]

or people left after 30 mins

 

[Stefan44]

Unbelievably idiotic move from these passengers, i have huge sympathy for all those caught up in the chaos that we have just seen over the past couple of days.

However risking not only your own life but that of the rescuers is very selfish.

 

[theageofthetra]

or people left after 30 mins

Not surprising. There was that one outside London Bridge where they left in under that.

 

[theageofthetra]

Unbelievably idiotic move from these passengers, i have huge sympathy for all those caught up in the chaos that we have just seen over the past couple of days.

However risking not only your own life but that of the rescuers is very selfish.

Indeed but as many studies into human behaviour have found people will do this if trapped for an unknown length of time and they do not trust those in charge.

It's not condoning what they did , it is just human nature

 

[LAX54]

I had heard that the Rail Staff and Emergency services were tied up in multiple trains that the public had decided to leave, hence no doubt the time it took to get to all of them! so if it was indeed 30 mins it now looks like it was self inflicted ! so from me, no sympathy at all.

 

[Antman]

Unbelievably idiotic move from these passengers, i have huge sympathy for all those caught up in the chaos that we have just seen over the past couple of days.

However risking not only your own life but that of the rescuers is very selfish.

So how long should passengers have remained trapped on a train when there was an escape route in sight?

What 'rescuers' were put at risk?

Rather easy to pass judgment from the comfort of your armchair.