Passengers blocking doorways

[TurbostarFan]

Is it acceptable for passengers to block a doorway with luggage or bicycles etc and for the train to depart in spite of this? The way I see it this is clearly banned by the conditions of carriage so should not be permitted to occur.

 

[Ken H]

Is it acceptable for passengers to block a doorway with luggage or bicycles etc and for the train to depart in spite of this? The way I see it this is clearly banned by the conditions of carriage so should not be permitted to occur.

so where else to they put their stuff?

 

[sw1ller]

Where are the conditions of carriage so I can see it’s banned please.

 

[Master29]

Is it acceptable for passengers to block a doorway with luggage or bicycles etc and for the train to depart in spite of this? The way I see it this is clearly banned by the conditions of carriage so should not be permitted to occur.

I myself have just got off an IEP at Plymouth where we had to catch a 2 car 150 to stations in Cornwall which was rammed with suitcases blocking doors and aisles alike. You make a good point but surely not a practical one and not always the fault of the poor passengers.

 

[robbeech]

Where are the conditions of carriage so I can see it’s banned please.

Superseded a few years ago. Though the rule is likely still there.

I would suggest that if we enforced the rules as strictly as you would like, with no passengers with luggage in doorways then we would very quickly see 30 to 40 % of peak time services cancelled every day and the results of that would likely not be pretty.

 

[TurbostarFan]

so where else to they put their stuff?

In the luggage area maybe?

 

[TurbostarFan]

What I mean is actually blocking the doorway in full, not merely in part.

Here are the National Rail Conditions of Travel: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

 

[Surreytraveller]

In the luggage area maybe?

There won't be room in the luggage area for everyone's luggage

 

[sefton]

Is it acceptable for passengers to block a doorway with luggage or bicycles etc and for the train to depart in spite of this? The way I see it this is clearly banned by the conditions of carriage so should not be permitted to occur.

Get a grip - there is an awful lot worse that happens on train which is utterly ignored, so you are deluded if you think anything will be done about this (and that is leaving aside the fact that on many trains there is nowhere to store luggage or bikes).

 

[TurbostarFan]

Get a grip - there is an awful lot worse that happens on train which is utterly ignored, so you are deluded if you think anything will be done about this (and that is leaving aside the fact that on many trains there is nowhere to store luggage or bikes).

I do not think that it actually will.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

What I mean is actually blocking the doorway in full, not merely in part.

Here are the National Rail Conditions of Travel: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

And at a quick glance, I think the relevant condition is 23.1.3. To be pedantic, this is only for 'luggage' and not (except for the extent that 22.5 talks about fully folding bicycles) not 'bicycles'.

Pragmatically, like a lot of rules, I don't expect that these rules are universally followed or enforced. They are there to give some legal backup to railway staff when a passenger is doing something that suits the passenger, but in the opinion of the railway staff is disadvantaging the operation of the railway.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

There will never be enough room to stow large suitcases (that are too large or heavy to be lifted onto overhead racks), pushchairs or bicycles and on-board staff do try to enforce the "no luggage in gangway" rule in my experience.

Where else is one expected to stow luggage if not near the doors and all available space is used up? As long as it doesn't hinder passengers getting on and off

 

[TurbostarFan]

There will never be enough room to stow large suitcases (that are too large or heavy to be lifted onto overhead racks), pushchairs or bicycles and on-board staff do try to enforce the "no luggage in gangway" rule in my experience.

Where else is one expected to stow luggage if not near the doors and all available space is used up? As long as it doesn't hinder passengers getting on and off

I am referring to actually blocking the doorway, not merely being "near the doors" or "in gangway".

 

[PHILIPE]

Who is going to enforce it, anyway. ?

 

[bramling]

I am referring to actually blocking the doorway, not merely being "near the doors" or "in gangway".

Depends it the owner is sensible about moving it if and when the doorway needs to be used. Remember that on some TOCs the official guidance has been that bicycles need to be stored in a doorway, on my local TOC I believe this still stands.

And, of course, on a DOO service who is there to enforce niceties?

 

[TurbostarFan]

Who is going to enforce it, anyway. ?

Good question, I'm actually talking about what is and what is not acceptable as opposed to who is going to enforce the rules on a DOO service. In my opinion that is best discussed on a seperate thread.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In my experience, people often block the doors with bicycles on the non-platform side. Where they have been caught out (i.e. where train pulls into a platform on the "wrong" side), usually they move their bicycles without question.

 

[sw1ller]

you have to make a risk assessment at the time. This is another one of your questions with no blanket/simple answer. If something is blocking a door that’s lightweight and easily moved to the other side of the vestibule when needed, on a quiet service then you would use common sense and leave the passenger be. Maybe have a polite word with them that it could become a major problem further up the line if the service becomes busy. But if it’s a large, heavy object that’s leaning agains a door, on a packed service, then you’d probably have to refuse on the grounds of safety. I won’t let bikes on a 158 behind the driver at busy stations for example. It can be too dangerous if I need to open the door mid journey. Each case is different.

 

[jon0844]

I had to have a go at someone who not only put his bike behind the cab door of a 395, but then proceeded to use bungee cords to secure it. This obviously blocked any escape route for the driver.

Without working for SET or wearing a uniform etc, I decided to step in and tell the cyclist to move it.

When it comes to passenger doors, I just move objects myself to get off if needed. I'll give some time for the owner to do so, but I'm not going to miss my stop without a damn good reason!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it acceptable for passengers to block a doorway with luggage or bicycles etc and for the train to depart in spite of this? The way I see it this is clearly banned by the conditions of carriage so should not be permitted to occur.

It's a bit annoying, but it happens because modern trains are designed with a lack of luggage space (though this is improving again, with most post-2010 rolling stock having very large overhead racks). It's not a serious safety concern, because in almost all cases evacuating the train quickly is not the correct course of action in an accident.

 

[js1000]

This is a particular problem on Manchester Airport services. Unlike Heathrow/Stansted/Gatwick Express there is little room for luggage other than in the doorways as they are cramped trains (319s, 156s etc) with no any luggage racks. It also prolongs dwell times at Piccadilly & Oxford Road more than it should do and adds to the congestion at these stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a particular problem on Manchester Airport services. Unlike Heathrow/Stansted/Gatwick Express there is little room for luggage other than in the doorways as they are cramped trains (319s, 156s etc) with no any luggage racks.

Class 156s have large overhead racks and what is essentially a traditional van area at one end with space for up to about 10 bicycles at a squash and more luggage than anyone is ever likely to take. If there is luggage in the doorway or aisle of a Class 156, it's because the passengers are too bone-idle to put it in the right place.

319s similarly have large overheads though I think no van area.

 

[Ken H]

Class 156s have large overhead racks and what is essentially a traditional van area at one end with space for up to about 10 bicycles at a squash and more luggage than anyone is ever likely to take. If there is luggage in the doorway or aisle of a Class 156, it's because the passengers are too bone-idle to put it in the right place.

319s similarly have large overheads though I think no van area.

or they dont want it stolen

 

[CC 72100]

Class 156s have large overhead racks and what is essentially a traditional van area at one end with space for up to about 10 bicycles at a squash and more luggage than anyone is ever likely to take. If there is luggage in the doorway or aisle of a Class 156, it's because the passengers are too bone-idle to put it in the right place.

319s similarly have large overheads though I think no van area.

How well is this labelled though? Are there people at MIA directing people to these large luggage areas? (Unless it has changed I know for a fact there isn't).

Big luggage areas are only as good as the tools to encourage people to use them. Leisure/airport customers are the least likely to be familiar with train travel and so need to most 'encouragement' to use these areas than the regular commuter with a bike who is genned up on where to stow his bike.

In a perfect world you could have people at MIA on the platform directing people to these areas, wouldn't have to be particularly qualified and defo no need to be safety crit. But I can presume that the delay budgets aren't busted enough by inappropriately stored luggage to justify their cost...

 

[CC 72100]

or they dont want it stolen

It's a fair point. If they're anything like their respective areas on a class 153, the area is poorly lit and difficult to see from the saloon. Breaks the first rule of safe travelling of 'keeping your luggage in sight at all times'

 

[Bletchleyite]

or they dont want it stolen

It's no more likely to be nicked from the van area than the door vestibule. You can't see it in either location.

The bone idle comment was more about people who can't be bothered to put their bag in the overhead when it will easily fit.

 

[Meerkat]

IMO bikes just shouldn’t be allowed on busy services. They are just too awkward to be compatible with crowds of people through doors and on stairways.
Though people who trail wheelie cases way out behind them are nearly as bad......

 

[Ken H]

It's no more likely to be nicked from the van area than the door vestibule. You can't see it in either location.

The bone idle comment was more about people who can't be bothered to put their bag in the overhead when it will easily fit.

You are luck is they put in the door vestibule. Most put their bags on seats and ignore standees.

 

[Mojo]

Who is going to enforce it, anyway. ?

Other customers. I opened the door on a HST to find a bag blocking the door. There was no attempt to even put it sideways so the narrow side of the bag was facing the opening of the door, or move it out of the way. The train was busy to be fair, but not heaving, if the person had bothered to try they could have found somewhere more suitable to stow it.

 

[jon0844]

It's not a serious safety concern, because in almost all cases evacuating the train quickly is not the correct course of action in an accident.

I agree to a degree, but cases or bikes blocking your movement presents a problem if, say, aisles are blocked that would prevent people easily moving to another carriage. Or just stopping someone from going to the toilet or finding a seat elsewhere in the train because they can't walk through.

As someone has mentioned, passengers will often enforce the rules if there's no staff to do so. I'm sure we've all heard of stories where bikes or cases have been put on platforms (I have no idea if people really do this, or just act big behind a keyboard).