Passengers complaining about no seats available on busiest trains

[Dave1987]

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of passengers complain about the fact they cannot get a seat on the most popular trains, usually the express services. These services are usually the max length of train that can be run so impossible to add more carriages. Why not get a slightly slower train that is less crowded?

Do any regular passengers have an opinion on this?

 

[CompactDstrxion]

It may be impossible to add more carriages but there could be more frequent services.

 

[Greenback]

In many places, especially where passengers don't have a choice of fast/slower trains, there is room for longer trains, but no units to add on.

Most people just want to ge twhere they are going as soon as they can. They make a conscious choice to get on a busy service, and then moan about. We all do it, it's human nature!

 

[Haydn1971]

My usual Northern semi express between Meadowhall and Leeds is typically standing room only between Wakefield and Leeds each way - it becomes a problem when the usually rammed CrossCountry service gets cancelled or delayed, in which case the speed freaks transfer to my semi fast service.

I stopped using the CrossCountry service due to the lack of seats, the stopping service down through Swinton is just too busy and takes too long... So yes, I've adapted and accept a slightly longer trip as a trade off for getting a seat and free parking at Meadowhall - the fast service would be nice, but means I'd not get free parking, plus i'd have a. 40 minute tram ride home and a 10 minute walk to my house rather than the 15 minute drive, so the semi express actually is faster for me.

The moral is yes, you are correct, if passengers don't like it, adapt to suit your requirements - which might mean a different slower service, might mean using different stations, might mean different modes of getting to your stations... The railways ain't going to change to suit one person

 

[50041]

Yes - this a symptom of the terrible railway system we have in this country. In our rush to use units of a fixed formation we've lost the flexibility that a locomotive and carriages offers. In busy times - just add another carriage. BR used to do it but this is deemed inefficient in the current system.

 

[ainsworth74]

In our rush to use units of a fixed formation we've lost the flexibility that a locomotive and carriages offers. In busy times - just add another carriage. BR used to do it but this is deemed inefficient in the current system.

How often exactly and where exactly could you find BR fiddling with formations in the middle of the service (once we're out of the sixties at least)? Further I'd love to see how you could do this at somewhere like Kings Cross or Euston or Victoria or Waterloo in the middle of the peak. I don't see how loco hauled can claim any great flexibility advantage of units? I want to make my four -car train into an eight-car? Drive another unit onto the front. Eight to twelve? Drive another unit onto the front (and that's assuming we're working only with four car units other combinations are of course possible). It takes seconds compared with shunt moves, coupling, break tests and so on. Then of course you can run a twelve car train of three units and have it quickly split on route allowing one long train to serve several places with smaller trains of a more appropriate length for once you're out of London.

Forgive me but this is not a problem of a fixed unit length railway it's a problem of simply not having enough units.

 

[SS4]

Yes - this a symptom of the terrible railway system we have in this country. In our rush to use units of a fixed formation we've lost the flexibility that a locomotive and carriages offers. In busy times - just add another carriage. BR used to do it but this is deemed inefficient in the current system.

For each carriage the loco has to do more work and it requires additional force because it has to drive a longer shaft. I'm sure someone else (especially Nym) would know more about the physics of it but multiple units give extra power and more efficiency.

 

[Greenback]

Yes - this a symptom of the terrible railway system we have in this country. In our rush to use units of a fixed formation we've lost the flexibility that a locomotive and carriages offers. In busy times - just add another carriage. BR used to do it but this is deemed inefficient in the current system.

It is deemed inefficient because it IS inefficient!

 

[jopsuk]

taking a carriage out and replacing with a loco on services that are limited by platform length (many of the busiest commuter trains) would be a truly, truly terrible move.

 

[Dave1987]

taking a carriage out and replacing with a loco on services that are limited by platform length (many of the busiest commuter trains) would be a truly, truly terrible move.

Loco does not have to be in the platform, im pretty sure only passenger doors have to be on the platform

 

[EM2]

There are regular complaints of this nature on the Greater Anglia Metro services (the Liverpool Street to Shenfield stoppers).
They are all eight coaches and can't be longer, because of platform lengths at a number of stations and they run every ten minutes.
Yet they are still rammed from Ilford onwards.
Crossrail will supposedly help, but it's going to be difficult to extend platforms, especially at Maryland and Forest Gate.

 

[MCR247]

Loco does not have to be in the platform, im pretty sure only passenger doors have to be on the platform

Well I would suggest that an awful lot of platforms have signals at the end, and a lot would have points

 

[Dave1987]

Well I would suggest that an awful lot of platforms have signals at the end, and a lot would have points

Im not saying it happens everywhere, and yes you are right lots and lots of platforms have stop signals at the end of them. But HST's for example can have either power car off the end of the platform.

 

[317666]

With regards to catching a slower service that may be less crowded - Cambridge to London is a prime example, everybody piles onto the fast Kings Cross trains, which (especially if they've come from Kings Lynn) are often very, very full. The Liverpool Street services, provided they're formed of 8 coaches, are usually much emptier.

 

[jopsuk]

the platforms at the terminals are limited by the signals and pointwork the signals protect. If you have anything overhanging the end, you're likely to be blocking one or more other platforms out of use.

On busy stopping services, selective door opening is only sensible at one or two stops- you really can't be using it at every station, otherwise the affected carriages will have service-damaging dwell times
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Liverpool Street services, provided they're formed of 8 coaches, are usually much emptier.

Only when they leave Cambridge- there's a good reason that when the 379s were brought in three peak services were extended to 12 car and had stops south of Stortford removed. They get busier further south...

 

[tbtc]

this is not a problem of a fixed unit length railway it's a problem of simply not having enough units

True.

Loco hauled wouldn't solve anything - we see plenty of joins/ splits with multiple units each day (AIUI most TOCs have services which join/ split somewhere).

Some people always find loco hauled to be the answer (and have to work backwards to justify it!)...

 

[route:oxford]

It's all lies.

We can't possibly be in the double, heading for a triple dip recession and the trains be 180% full during commuting hours.

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Dave1987]

It's all lies.

We can't possibly be in the double, heading for a triple dip recession and the trains be 180% full during commuting hours.

It just doesn't make sense.

Dont really wanna start politics arguement on this thread

 

[route:oxford]

Dont really wanna start politics arguement on this thread

It's more economics than politics.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of passengers complain about the fact they cannot get a seat on the most popular trains, usually the express services. These services are usually the max length of train that can be run so impossible to add more carriages. Why not get a slightly slower train that is less crowded?

Do any regular passengers have an opinion on this?

One can only assume from your post that you've never had to commute to and from work? As a commuter of many years, the basic's are listed below:

1. The need to get to the office for a full days work without hopefully having to get up at stupid o'clock.

2. The desire to get home as soon as possible to one's wife and kids. My desire to eat dinner with my family means that I'm not prepared to wait until everyone else has cleared off home!

 

[Dave1987]

One can only assume from your post that you've never had to commute to and from work? As a commuter of many years, the basic's are listed below:

1. The need to get to the office for a full days work without hopefully having to get up at stupid o'clock.

2. The desire to get home as soon as possible to one's wife and kids. My desire to eat dinner with my family means that I'm not prepared to wait until everyone else has cleared off home!

I can totally understand this point but you cannot complain about the lack of a seat because everyone else wants to get one the same service.

 

[D2022]

I sacrifice time for an easy ride at Bath a lot, ditch the FGW service to Portsmouth Harbour or maybe Weymouth, sometimes it's a Westbury, for the SWT to Waterloo ten minutes later, most people bail the train at Bradford On Avon or Trowbridge so get the FGW service, which is then a sardine can surprise..Use your noodle and wait for the half empty (at most) Waterloo service and get the comfort seats. Better air con, cleaner trains. Plus you know always know its going to be a 158 or a 159, not a hi cap 150 with the toilet overflowing.

 

[Matt Taylor]

You have made a lifestyle choice, very few people have the luxury of not having to compromise either their career, their finances or their time. Most people sacrifice their time and money in order to have both a rewarding career, some sacrifice their career in order to spend more time at home and less time commuting, others sacrifice their finances in order to have a good career and more spare time by living in central London.

 

[Tiny Tim]

It's more economics than politics.

Or to put it another way, it's the failure of economic predictions to do what the politicians expected.

When our railways were privatised, the motives weren't entirely political. BR was seen as a declining industry and privatisation the cheapest way to manage that decline. If it hadn't been done in such a hurry someone might have noticed that rail had already 'turned the corner'. We now have a corporate infrastructure incapable of responding effectively to increased demand; It wasn't expected to do so. The original setup of Railtrack, TOCs and ROSCOs was designed to deal with nothing more than minor, localised spikes in business, not the widespread demand for more services running on an extended network. Long term overcrowding is just a symptom of a system paralysed by it's own success.

And the answer? Sorry, I'm just another late-night armchair railway enthusiast.

 

[HSTEd]

With regards to this train from Henley to Paddington that has a 180% load factor.....

Won't that problem itself be solved with Crossrail provides buckets of capacity on the main line and the branch is reduced to a shuttle?

 

[87015]

I can totally understand this point but you cannot complain about the lack of a seat because everyone else wants to get one the same service.

Depends on what service. If its Greater Anglia GE as above then they certainly can moan as they made a decision to reduce the fleet and available seats to save money so deserve everything they get about overcrowding on the GE.

 

[Dave1987]

Depends on what service. If its Greater Anglia GE as above then they certainly can moan as they made a decision to reduce the fleet and available seats to save money so deserve everything they get about overcrowding on the GE.

GA during the peak run as many trains as it is possible to run, during the peak every train is 12 cars. There is no more space to run any more trains as they are already do close together. What more do you suggest they do?

 

[jopsuk]

No, when they took over from NXEA they did reduce the length of a small number of trains and sent nine class 317/7 units off-lease.

 

[Nym]

For each carriage the loco has to do more work and it requires additional force because it has to drive a longer shaft. I'm sure someone else (especially Nym) would know more about the physics of it but multiple units give extra power and more efficiency.

Thanks. Ill do a quick one now for you and more detail when I get home at silly o clock because I have to work away from commuters ..

LHCS has its place. But with a more time critical railway, especially with the onset of ETCS regulation, this is getting progressively smaller. Especially with the new traction packages coming online over the last 20 years.

 

[317666]

Only when they leave Cambridge- there's a good reason that when the 379s were brought in three peak services were extended to 12 car and had stops south of Stortford removed. They get busier further south...

Ah, I was talking off-peak to be fair. Although my comment about eight coaches is aimed at whoever's idea it was to change 8-car Saturday services to 4 car. Think it happened at the December 2011 timetable change. Before the 379s arrived, most Saturday Cambridge trains were 4 coaches, but after they entered service they were extended to 8 coaches. Only to go back to 4 coaches again!