Passengers complaining about no seats available on busiest trains

[185]

Our problem in the UK is there are too many people in transport management, (over-)paid to obstruct common sense.

Due to that, this kind of train, and the (quite minor) changes to infrastructure it would require would never get passed in the UK....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cityrail-Tangara-G6-ext.jpg
(picture:wiki)

8 carriages = 4. Wider loading gauge = 3+2 comfortable seats.

 

[87015]

Ah, I was talking off-peak to be fair. Although my comment about eight coaches is aimed at whoever's idea it was to change 8-car Saturday services to 4 car. Think it happened at the December 2011 timetable change. Before the 379s arrived, most Saturday Cambridge trains were 4 coaches, but after they entered service they were extended to 8 coaches. Only to go back to 4 coaches again!

I thought most were 8 cars on Saturdays or has that been cut back further? Certainly was at the outset of Dec 11.

 

[Dave1987]

No, when they took over from NXEA they did reduce the length of a small number of trains and sent nine class 317/7 units off-lease.

I'm pretty sure the 317's that were taken off lease were not in regular use on GEML anyway. Nearly all peak time trains are max length 12 cars.

 

[Bald Rick]

It does amaze me how many people strop at FCC RPIs when being relieved of upwards of £20 for sitting in first class without the appropriate ticket along the lines of "I pay £3000 (etc) for this and never ever get a seat".

And they are saying this from the comfort of a first class seat (which they hadn't paid for) and have chosen to get the fast train rather than the semi-fast that leaves at exactly the same time, with seats galore, but takes 8 minutes longer.

Life is full of choices!

 

[Geezertronic]

Our problem in the UK is there are too many people in transport management, (over-)paid to obstruct common sense.

Due to that, this kind of train, and the (quite minor) changes to infrastructure it would require would never get passed in the UK....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cityrail-Tangara-G6-ext.jpg
(picture:wiki)

8 carriages = 4. Wider loading gauge = 3+2 comfortable seats.

I would suggest that the infrastructure changes wouldn't be minor considering the height difference between this unit and the average unit that runs on the British railways considering there is approx a 1 foot (0.6m) difference in the height of the vehicles

 

[wilsontown]

It always amuses me doing the Leeds-York run of an evening. Loads of people wedge themselves onto the 17:57 TPE for Newcastle, a 3-coach 185, which typically leaves very, very full. 9 minutes later, an XC HST leaves for Glasgow Central, getting to York 6 minutes after the TPE. Loads of spare seats (I can usually have a bay of four to myself), much more comfortable train, and runs non-stop to York.

 

[jon0844]

I can totally understand this point but you cannot complain about the lack of a seat because everyone else wants to get one the same service.

Indeed. As a commuter, you'd probably know just how tightly packed train services are and have realised that the reason the trains are overcrowded is down to the other people who have the nerve to commute at the same time as you!

You might be able to extend trains, extend platforms or perhaps add more tracks but there is a limit - just like the road network - and eventually you must start to try and discourage people from travelling at the busiest times. There's no other way!

Otherwise imagine the immense cost to build a network that copes with demand between 6-9 and 4-7pm and is virtually unused the rest of the time! A cost that would mean season tickets going up even more.

It does amaze me how many people strop at FCC RPIs when being relieved of upwards of £20 for sitting in first class without the appropriate ticket along the lines of "I pay £3000 (etc) for this and never ever get a seat".

And they are saying this from the comfort of a first class seat (which they hadn't paid for) and have chosen to get the fast train rather than the semi-fast that leaves at exactly the same time, with seats galore, but takes 8 minutes longer.

Life is full of choices!

Absolutely. Although, I have to say that shortly before I stopped commuting, my local bus changed its times and I was effectively forced to take the fast train - but I still got a seat as I boarded at the country end, unlike everyone else packing into coach 1 of 8!

To wait for the semi-fast, with first class declassified, meant missing the bus by 2 minutes and a 20-30 minute wait for the next one. But, as you say, I have choices and sometimes I'd still do it!

Some commuters do themselves no favours at all. They act like sheep and don't think to perhaps spend a day or two experimenting with different services, getting on different carriages and seeing if there's a nicer and more comfortable way to do the commute.

That said, I guess I always benefited from these lazy and ignorant commuters so long may most of them pack themselves in like sardines!

 

[tbtc]

With regards to this train from Henley to Paddington that has a 180% load factor.....

Won't that problem itself be solved with Crossrail provides buckets of capacity on the main line and the branch is reduced to a shuttle?

That should certainly see a lot more capacity at the Paddington end (though presumably Henley will lose its direct London service?)

 

[317666]

I'm pretty sure the 317's that were taken off lease were not in regular use on GEML anyway. Nearly all peak time trains are max length 12 cars.

They were used on the Harwich International boat trains, and the 17:02 Liverpool Street - Norwich stopper (and 19:30 return).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought most were 8 cars on Saturdays or has that been cut back further? Certainly was at the outset of Dec 11.

Saturday trains are almost always 4-car 379s, which are actually more like 3-car seeing as almost an entire coach is first class which nobody uses, at least not leisure travellers. There are a few 8-car formations (from what I've seen a mix of 317s and 379s), but they are during the middle of the day when services are going to be used less so it seems just a tad pointless...

 

[RichmondCommu]

I can totally understand this point but you cannot complain about the lack of a seat because everyone else wants to get one the same service.

Hang on a minute, I'm haven't complained about not getting a seat and indeed accept this as being par for the course. All I've done is try to explain why so many people choose to travel at the same time, including me!

 

[Optimo]

Is part of the 'complaint' not based on the ever-increasing cost of rail travel, when the specific service(s) the passenger wants/uses is not (or appears not to be) improving? Lack of seats/space may be acceptable if the cost did not appear to be disconnected from the service provided (in some cases).

Passengers can try to re-arrange their travel, but there is little reward for it. Why not shorten the peak, and make trains arriving in London say prior to 7.30am 'off peak'? More people will travel early because it's cheaper yet not so early that you're outside your office at 6am - everyone wins. Passengers travel in comfort. Unless TOC exist purely for profit. Hammering everyone who travels before 10am as 'peak' is unfair.

As for my part, I stopped using FCC to travel from Harringay to Moorgate due to both the crowds, the short trains during peak hours (3 cars at 07:24?!), and the daily disruption/delays-leading-to-overcrowding. Better to walk 15mins to my nearest Zone 2 tube station and deny them any money - even the tube isn't as bad as some days on FCC.

 

[Dave1987]

Hang on a minute, I'm haven't complained about not getting a seat and indeed accept this as being par for the course. All I've done is try to explain why so many people choose to travel at the same time, including me!

My apologies the subject of the thread was ppl complaining about not getting a seat on busy trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Is part of the 'complaint' not based on the ever-increasing cost of rail travel, when the specific service(s) the passenger wants/uses is not (or appears not to be) improving? Lack of seats/space may be acceptable if the cost did not appear to be disconnected from the service provided (in some cases).

Spot on! The reality is that commuters are used as cash cows to fund the rest of the network, knowing damn well that the vast majority of us have no choice but to use the train. From Richmond I could take the tube but it would simply take too long.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My apologies the subject of the thread was ppl complaining about not getting a seat on busy trains.

No worries and merry Christmas! In all fairness it tends to be occasional uses of the railways that complain about the lack of seats at busy times; commuters tend to grudgingly accept the situation.

 

[jonhewes]

Some interesting discussions on this thread.

In my eyes, the solution to this would not be loco-hauled, but to have standardised coupling mechanisms, communication systems, and corridor connections at the ends of each unit.

The only instances where loco haulage would be worthwhile solution would be in instances where passenger and freight services were operated by the same organisation, or that train lengths made multiple unit operation too expensive.

Rolling stock procurement also needs a great deal of scrutiny too. No allowance for growth is made when replacing or acquiring new fleets of trains.

 

[AndyLandy]

LHCS has its place. But with a more time critical railway, especially with the onset of ETCS regulation, this is getting progressively smaller. Especially with the new traction packages coming online over the last 20 years.

Out of curiosity, what service type(s) would you consider appropriate to use LHCS for? About the only service type I can think of is sleeper trains, and even those might eventually just be sets of EMUs.

 

[tbtc]

Spot on! The reality is that commuters are used as cash cows to fund the rest of the network

Not necessarily, given that commuters obviously require resources considerably above and beyond those that are required for the "off peak" railway.

Those extra carriages are generally only needed once a day in each direction, so have a fairly high "marginal cost" for the railway.

 

[jon0844]

As for my part, I stopped using FCC to travel from Harringay to Moorgate due to both the crowds, the short trains during peak hours (3 cars at 07:24?!), and the daily disruption/delays-leading-to-overcrowding. Better to walk 15mins to my nearest Zone 2 tube station and deny them any money - even the tube isn't as bad as some days on FCC.

Unless FCC run some 'queue buster' type services, I do think people trying to board at a station like Harringay are going to struggle - as those trains are very crowded by the time they get there. Of course, a huge chunk get off at Finsbury Park!

What about taking a bus from Harringay to FPK? Is that/was that even possible?

I think now there's only one or two services that are 3-car only.

 

[HSTEd]

I just realised that the Henley Branch line is not one of the ones that will be reduced to a shuttle by Crossrail because Twyford is west of Maidenhead.... ooops.

In that case I suppose we just have to hope it ends up being electrified soon after the Great Western project is completed and that they can get some platform extensions so they can have 12 car trains worked throughout.

Although 6-car 395 type jobs would probably saturate demand...

 

[RichmondCommu]

I just realised that the Henley Branch line is not one of the ones that will be reduced to a shuttle by Crossrail because Twyford is west of Maidenhead.... ooops.

In that case I suppose we just have to hope it ends up being electrified soon after the Great Western project is completed and that they can get some platform extensions so they can have 12 car trains worked throughout.

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Henley and Marlow branches were now to be electrified?

 

[imagination]

I just realised that the Henley Branch line is not one of the ones that will be reduced to a shuttle by Crossrail because Twyford is west of Maidenhead.... ooops.

In that case I suppose we just have to hope it ends up being electrified soon after the Great Western project is completed and that they can get some platform extensions so they can have 12 car trains worked throughout.

That's not possible at Twyford. At present that train has to be able to fit on platform 5, but even if you put the train on platform 4 you wouldn't be able to fit a 12 car train on there. And the platform can't be extended without redesigning the entire junction, which would probably mean getting rid of the station car park.

Plenty of space at the Henley end, though.

 

[HSTEd]

That's not possible at Twyford. At present that train has to be able to fit on platform 5, but even if you put the train on platform 4 you wouldn't be able to fit a 12 car train on there. And the platform can't be extended without redesigning the entire junction, which would probably mean getting rid of the station car park.

Plenty of space at the Henley end, though.

There seems to be room at the east end of the station, although it would probably either require an easement to platform widths or it would require a new road bridge span.

But both of those things are probably far cheaper than doing anything to the junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Henley and Marlow branches were now to be electrified?

As far as I know everyone just assumes they will be since it makes no sense not to, but as far as I know they are not actually in the programme at the current time.

 

[imagination]

There seems to be room at the east end of the station, although it would probably either require an easement to platform widths or it would require a new road bridge span.

But both of those things are probably far cheaper than doing anything to the junction.

Yes, you could probably do it with the latter of those, but if that meant closing the bridge for a while - there's no other roads capable of taking that traffic across the railway between Woodley and Maidenhead, so there would be some very long diversions needed.

And yes, the Henley and Marlow lines were added to the electrification plans, though they weren't included in the initial version.

 

[gooner88]

Well what about the thought of bringing a third class into some trains offering no seating and have it as a standing only coach with the use of hand rails or like Ryanairs standing seats for lines that cannot increase coaches or tph.

 

[AndyLandy]

Well what about the thought of bringing a third class into some trains offering no seating and have it as a standing only coach with the use of hand rails or like Ryanairs standing seats for lines that cannot increase coaches or tph.

I'm sure Bob Crow has an opinion on that suggestion...

 

[Optimo]

Unless FCC run some 'queue buster' type services, I do think people trying to board at a station like Harringay are going to struggle - as those trains are very crowded by the time they get there. Of course, a huge chunk get off at Finsbury Park!

What about taking a bus from Harringay to FPK? Is that/was that even possible?

I think now there's only one or two services that are 3-car only.

Yeah, can totally see the shortcomings of getting on at Harringay, I'm realistic about the problems it has being just before Finsbury Park.

Though as it is the first station in Zone 3 on that line, it was a double-whammy of paying top dollar for a service I could rarely use with any acceptable reliability, never mind comfort - most people would be happy to just get on a train from 7:45am-9am!

Perhaps zone pricing should be based not upon distance from Central London (as it appears to be to a layman), but on how likely you are to be able to use a service from Station X into Central London? E.g. £100 a month for stations between Ally Pally-->Finsbury Park-->Mog, but since there's only an 85% chance of getting on a train at Harringay as trains are too full after pickup at AP and Hornsey, it's £85 a month or something for Harringay-->Finsbury Park-->Mog.

Season tickets for the route are not priced any differently if I get on at Harringay or get on at Alexandra Palace, v unfair.

Anyway, yes, getting side tracked. In short - I cycle to work a lot more now!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well what about the thought of bringing a third class into some trains offering no seating and have it as a standing only coach with the use of hand rails or like Ryanairs standing seats for lines that cannot increase coaches or tph.

Perhaps a more socialy acceptable solution would be to order more Class 378's for inner suburban lines such as the Moorgate route.

 

[HSTEd]

Might be easier to simply run 2x6x20m formations on the fast lines flat out between Paddington and Maidenhead, then have the formation break in half there and run six cars to Bourne End and six on to Twyford and then to Henley.

But that would likely require a major remodelling of Maidenhead station simply because there are crossovers missing that would be required to get to the fifth platform from the line from Reading.

 

[transmanche]

As for my part, I stopped using FCC to travel from Harringay to Moorgate due to both the crowds, the short trains during peak hours (3 cars at 07:24?!), and the daily disruption/delays-leading-to-overcrowding. Better to walk 15mins to my nearest Zone 2 tube station and deny them any money - even the tube isn't as bad as some days on FCC.

I used to commute from Hornsey to Old Street in the mid/late-80s. Sounds like nothing much has changed in that time (despite years of inflation-busting fare increases).

Returning all the 313s back to the GN would help reduce the number of short-formed services. Giving them a SWT 455-style refurb would help with the capacity.

 

[dmacw]

When checking tickets on peak trains leaving London, I will quite often start at the front of the train and work back. Two reasons - it's less crowded at the front, and secondly, if anyone towards the back says there's no seats and they have to stand, I can point them towards the front of the train.

 

[Nym]

When checking tickets on peak trains leaving London, I will quite often start at the front of the train and work back. Two reasons - it's less crowded at the front, and secondly, if anyone towards the back says there's no seats and they have to stand, I can point them towards the front of the train.

Please don't I like it up the front of the 12 coach services off London Termini where no-one else can be bothered walking to...