Passengers thinking they can use Oyster PAYG beyond the PAYG area

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dmacw

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Bit of a question of mine about what the official line.

A passenger thinks for whatever strange reason they can use Oyster (PAYG) say from London Victoria to Eastbourne.

They 'tap in' at London Victoria, this lets them through the barriers etc

A guard checks tickets say in the Gatwick Airport area and is presented with the Oyster card.

What should happen?

a) a new ticket from East Croydon (last place the train stopped within the zonal system where Oyster is valid) to Eastbourne?
b) a new ticket from London Victoria to Eastbourne, as they couldn't 'tap out' anywhere. Therefore it hasn't been a valid ticket. They would then have a unresolved journey, and would be charged the highest amount.
c) other
 
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Urban Gateline

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Should be option B unless the passenger has a Travelcard season ticket on the Oyster and then a Boundary Zone fare could be charged (although questionably this should be purchased before travel so maybe just option B!)

Especially if the passenger is wishing to buy a return ticket then a Boundary Z6 or East Croydon ticket may not do them any favours if they have to exit the train at ECR on the return Journey to touch in Oyster again!

I'd like to think that the Oyster boundaries are made quite clear in TFL/NRE publications so there's not much of an excuse of using it outside the areas permitted.
 

SS4

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B) They're treated as not having a ticket beyond the boundary and a penalty fare if applicable IMO
 

Matt Taylor

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I'd like to think that the Oyster boundaries are made quite clear in TFL/NRE publications so there's not much of an excuse of using it outside the areas permitted.
'Nobody told me I could only use it in London', I've heard that so many times at Staines, Weybridge, Woking, Guildford etc.
 

Brucey

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'Nobody told me I could only use it in London', I've heard that so many times at Staines, Weybridge, Woking, Guildford etc.
Shortly after the ITSO readers were installed at Havant, I overheard someone saying how great it was that Oyster was now extended this far from London :roll:

As the barriers were locked open and I'm just a passenger, I decided to keep out of it and let them learn the hard way...
 

tannedfrog

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I was laughed at when I tried to use Oyster on Chiltern Railways in the midlands until I pointed out that there is a weekend "travel anywhere on the network" offer if you have a Travelcard costing more than £150 bought from a Chiltern station!

They still didnt believe me but I was right!
 

tannedfrog

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Especially if the passenger is wishing to buy a return ticket then a Boundary Z6 or East Croydon ticket may not do them any favours if they have to exit the train at ECR on the return Journey to touch in Oyster again!.
But you wouldnt need to touch in if you had Travelcard on the Oyster
 

Urban Gateline

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But you wouldnt need to touch in if you had Travelcard on the Oyster
I was mostly refering to Oyster PAYG, however I believe TFL rules still stipulate that you must touch your Oyster card in and out regardless of if it is a season ticket or PAYG!

The situation becomes more interesting if the train doesn't stop at any stations within the Oyster area (e.g. Fast Portsmouth train out of Waterloo with a first stop of Woking) then arguably the full anytime (day) ticket without discount should be purchased.
 

The Colonel

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In the past fortnight I've been asked if they are valid to Guildford, Weybridge, Epsom (an almost daily one that) and Lingfield !
 

yorkie

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But you wouldnt need to touch in if you had Travelcard on the Oyster
This thread is regarding Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG), although this was stated in the original post, I have edited the thread title to clarify this.

For the benefit of anyone who is unsure, an Oyster card is a medium. Oyster PAYG is a product, and a Travelcard Season is another product (that may be loaded onto an Oyster card if it is an in-boundary Travelcard Season, however Day Travelcards and out-boundary Travelcards may not be loaded onto Oyster, as far as I know).
 

island

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A passenger presenting an Oyster card with PAYG only where not valid would be liable in my opinion and experience to a Penalty Fare based on where they joined the train (or an SDS with no discount if no authorised collector is present). This is what Southeastern does to people at Dartford and Greenhithe. They may be able to get the maximum charge refunded, if the Oyster helpline is in a good mood.

If the passenger has a Travelcard valid for part of the journey and joined at a Southern station or one with an open ticket office, same story. Otherwise, they may buy a boundary zone ticket with any applicable discount.
 

91101

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The best one I saw, was getting off a GC in Sunderland, and woman asking me if she could her Oyster card on the Metro!!
 

CNash

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The fairest thing to do would be to charge them for a single from the first station outside Zone 6 on the route (plus/including penalty fare, naturally), as technically they've paid for their journey whilst inside the Oyster area - the maximum possible fare would have been deducted from their PAYG, or covered if they were using a Travelcard. I don't know what the actual policy is, or whether it varies by TOC...
 

34D

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Pedant - oyster payg can already be used beyond zone 6 in certain locations. There are zones 7 8 and 9 northwest of London, there is Watford Junction, and there is Grays. Is there somewhere else too?

At Dartford (where freedom passes can be used, and gates presumably fitted with oyster readers) what happens when an oyster payg card is touched?
 

Urban Gateline

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At Dartford (where freedom passes can be used, and gates presumably fitted with oyster readers) what happens when an oyster payg card is touched?
There's no Oyster readers at Dartford, so anyone with a freedom pass would have to show it at the manual barrier then, I wasn't even aware that freedom passes are accepted there!
 

34D

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There's no Oyster readers at Dartford, so anyone with a freedom pass would have to show it at the manual barrier then, I wasn't even aware that freedom passes are accepted there!
To be fair, there are quite a few stations beyond oyster area that have oyster pads - stevenage bedford and many fcc stations being a case in point (they reject oyster cards with a red light from what I've seen)
 

Urban Gateline

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To be fair, there are quite a few stations beyond oyster area that have oyster pads - stevenage bedford and many fcc stations being a case in point (they reject oyster cards with a red light from what I've seen)
Ahh but those are most likely set up to be ITSO pads rather than Oyster, so they will not connect with Oyster cards anyway :p
 

Aictos

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Ahh but those are most likely set up to be ITSO pads rather than Oyster, so they will not connect with Oyster cards anyway :p
As FCC had its plans to extend Oyster rejected by the DfT, your answer is likely to be correct as ITSO has been chosen by the DfT as the alternative to Oyster.

Whatever standard the DfT uses, I do wish they get on with it!
 

Mike395

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To be fair, there are quite a few stations beyond oyster area that have oyster pads - stevenage bedford and many fcc stations being a case in point (they reject oyster cards with a red light from what I've seen)
Bedford doesnt have them :) </pedant>

But yes, I do wish that the whole ITSO process was sped up somewhat! :)
 

PhilipW

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Shortly after the ITSO readers were installed at Havant, I overheard someone saying how great it was that Oyster was now extended this far from London :roll:
Expect much more of this in the future. I expect that the general public not versed in railway matters will be totally confused about the differences between Oyster PAYG and ITSO.

Even I, with my knowledge of railways, just has a general understanding of ITSO. If asked to give a comprehensive overview of the system, I couldn't.

So more ticket confusion amongst the general public, Business as usual.
 

burneside

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I was mostly refering to Oyster PAYG, however I believe TFL rules still stipulate that you must touch your Oyster card in and out regardless of if it is a season ticket or PAYG!
The notices on the card readers on the DLR on only mention swiping in and out for PAYG users. I never swipe my Oyster season ticket on the DLR and nothing has ever been said when checks are done on the train.
 

Skymonster

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I can see why non-Londoners / non-Oyster regulars might not be clear on the boundaries... AFAIK they don't give you a detailed map of the Oyster coverage area when you "buy" an Oyster card - I think that the message that it works on LU/LT/LO etc is there, but then when you also consider it can be used on some national rail services the waters are likely to get a bit muddied, especially for those not familiar with the transport system / out-of-towners / tourists. Far better IMHO would be to have a card that works on all LT/LU/LO AND National Rail networks, OR until that's possible just not allow Oyster on heavy rail at all for PAYG users (i.e. only allow Oyster on heavy rail with a season).

Andy
 

MikeWh

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I can see why non-Londoners / non-Oyster regulars might not be clear on the boundaries... AFAIK they don't give you a detailed map of the Oyster coverage area when you "buy" an Oyster card - I think that the message that it works on LU/LT/LO etc is there, but then when you also consider it can be used on some national rail services the waters are likely to get a bit muddied, especially for those not familiar with the transport system / out-of-towners / tourists. Far better IMHO would be to have a card that works on all LT/LU/LO AND National Rail networks, OR until that's possible just not allow Oyster on heavy rail at all for PAYG users (i.e. only allow Oyster on heavy rail with a season).

Andy
Oh goodness, no!!!

They should include a copy of this map with every card. If you go back to not allowing PAYG on NR then huge swathes of Londoners will be inconvenienced and/or overcharged. This absolutely must not happen!
 

CNash

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Here's an idea - expand the Oyster zones so that Oyster tickets are valid at stations served by London buses. At the moment, in some cases it may be cheaper to use Oyster until you get to the edge of zone 6, then hop on a bus.

For example, getting to Dartford from Charing Cross. Do you pay the straight-through fare of £7.70, or use your Oyster card to get to Crayford (£3.40) then a bus to Dartford (£1.35)? It takes a little bit more time, yes, but the saving justifies it.
 

Urban Gateline

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Here's an idea - expand the Oyster zones so that Oyster tickets are valid at stations served by London buses. At the moment, in some cases it may be cheaper to use Oyster until you get to the edge of zone 6, then hop on a bus.

For example, getting to Dartford from Charing Cross. Do you pay the straight-through fare of £7.70, or use your Oyster card to get to Crayford (£3.40) then a bus to Dartford (£1.35)? It takes a little bit more time, yes, but the saving justifies it.
This has been discussed before and the problem found was that you'd need to make new zones to add these stations to Oyster, if you propose not to add new zones then the TOC's will basically lose revenue from it so there is little incentive for them to add an alternative to paper tickets outside the Oyster areas!
 

jon0844

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The best one I saw, was getting off a GC in Sunderland, and woman asking me if she could her Oyster card on the Metro!!
To be fair, any normal person might think that it would be possible if they don't know that Oyster is 'a London thing'.

We know Oyster is a TfL product, but it could feasibly have been developed as a payment system valid elsewhere. Why not have a PAYG card work on the Metro? Why not have the same card loaded with a Travelcard for London, or its equivalent there? And indeed any other city with a subway/tram network and its own smartcard system - even if Oyster might not be valid on the trains to/from each city.

One day we WILL have a smartcard that can be used everywhere, and London may well become part of that so we don't need to carry loads of different cards.
 
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