"Passengers travelling from stations on the Greenford branch or Ealing broadway may travel via Slough"

stevetay3

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The routeing guide the biggest joke of all. eg. Passengers travelling from stations on the Greenford branch or Ealing broadway may travel via Slough, unless I am missing something what other way is there, Paddington not allowed.
 
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yorkie

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The routeing guide the biggest joke of all. eg. Passengers travelling from stations on the Greenford branch or Ealing broadway may travel via Slough, unless I am missing something what other way is there, Paddington not allowed.
This isn't really anything to do with the Routeing Guide itself.

You are quoting an easement; as documented on this forum on previous occasions, easements are encoded for a variety of reasons, one of which is to resolve issues in journey planners. The text version of the easement shouldn't be taken out of context and you cannot read too much into the meaning of any such text.
 

stevetay3

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This isn't really anything to do with the Routeing Guide itself.

You are quoting an easement; as documented on this forum on previous occasions, easements are encoded for a variety of reasons, one of which is to resolve issues in journey planners. The text version of the easement shouldn't be taken out of context and you cannot read too much into the meaning of any such text.
Yes but there are loads of them are they paying people good money to state the obvious in this publication, I have read all of it and I can’t completely fathom in out. The money would be much better spent on improving the service rather than “I can travel via slough when I am going Ealing to Reading.“ It’s time the railway moved out of the last century.
 

Dai Corner

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Yes but there are loads of them are they paying people good money to state the obvious in this publication, I have read all of it and I can’t completely fathom in out. The money would be much better spent on improving the service rather than “I can travel via slough when I am going Ealing to Reading.“ It’s time the railway moved out of the last century.
Fortunately we don't have to understand the routing guide as those who create and maintain journey planners do it for us.
 

MarlowDonkey

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“I can travel via slough when I am going Ealing to Reading.“
Isn't that trying to say or instruct computer software that when someone buys a ticket at Ealing to travel to Reading, it's neessary to take a direct train? In other words heading in the wrong direction to Paddington and going to Reading non-stop isn't allowed on the usual ticket.
 

stevetay3

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Isn't that trying to say or instruct computer software that when someone buys a ticket at Ealing to travel to Reading, it's neessary to take a direct train? In other words heading in the wrong direction to Paddington and going to Reading non-stop isn't allowed on the usual ticket.
But it is most likely quicker via Paddington
 

JonathanH

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But it is most likely quicker via Paddington
...and therefore appropriate to be charged at a higher price for the longer distance and higher perceived value.

(Once we have universal PAYG it might be different if you can avoid a ticket barrier.)
 

yorkie

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Isn't that trying to say or instruct computer software that when someone buys a ticket at Ealing to travel to Reading, it's neessary to take a direct train? In other words heading in the wrong direction to Paddington and going to Reading non-stop isn't allowed on the usual ticket.
No.


Here is an analysis of the easement:


Text:
030012,Journeys to or from SOuth Greenford, Castle Bar Park, Drayton Green, Hanwell, Acton Mainline, Ealing Broadway, West Ealing, Hayes and Harlington and West Drayton to Reading and beyond may travel via Slough. This easement applies in both directions

Easement Record data (one record for each direction):
E,030012,19042005,31122999,030012,3,1,3,YYYYYYY,,
E,030013,19042005,31122999,030012,3,1,3,YYYYYYY,,

Start date: 19-April-2005
Easement type: Normal
Easement class: Positive
Easement category: Routeing Point Easement


Location Record data (two sets, covering each direction, first we cover westbound):
L,030012,AML,2
L,030012,CBP,2
L,030012,DRG,2
L,030012,EAL,2
L,030012,HAN,2
L,030012,HAY,2
L,030012,RDG,4
L,030012,SGN,2
L,030012,SLO,1
L,030012,STL,2
L,030012,WDT,2
L,030012,WEA,2
All stations listed above (by CRS code) are origins, except:
RDG (Reading) is the via point
SLO (Slough) is the Applicable location


L,030013,AML,3
L,030013,CBP,3
L,030013,DRG,3
L,030013,EAL,3
L,030013,HAN,3
L,030013,HAY,3
L,030013,RDG,4
L,030013,SGN,3
L,030013,SLO,1
L,030013,STL,3
L,030013,WDT,3
L,030013,WEA,3
In the eastbound direction, this is reversed, i.e. all the origins are specified as destinations.

All this actually means is that where the conditions are met, Slough is a valid Routeing Point.

The text could be better worded, but the text is ignored by journey planning software and there is no requirement for any customer to be aware of it.

Quicker journey = more expensive fare. Passengers have the choice.
True in many cases, though not for shorter distances

For example Greenford to Didcot has the choice of "Not via London" or "+Any Permitted", while Ealing Broadway to Reading only has "Not via London"

Yes but there are loads of them are they paying people good money to state the obvious in this publication
That is not the purpose, no.

I have read all of it and I can’t completely fathom in out.
There is no need for anyone to fathom it out, unless they have a job working with rail fares.


The money would be much better spent on improving the service rather than “I can travel via slough when I am going Ealing to Reading.“ It’s time the railway moved out of the last century.
Easements are implemented for variety of reasons, such as to fix data issues, or to fix journey planners that incorrectly interpret the routeing guide.

Now, if your criticism were that the way the text is worded is not always clear, and does not always relate to what the easement is actually doing, then that would be a valid criticism.
 
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stevetay3

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It is far more expensive via Paddington, it is not the passengers fault there are no direct fast trains on there route, you would need Ealing to Pad. To singles at 3.40.then Pad to Reading 50.20 anytime day return. Ealing to Reading direct 30.20 anytime day return. a difference of 27 more just to go Ealing to Paddington, surely a positive easement should apply to stop this massive difference in price would be called profiteering elsware.

No.


Here is an analysis of the easement:


Text:


Easement Record data (one record for each direction):


Start date: 19-April-2005
Easement type: Normal
Easement class: Positive
Easement category: Routeing Point Easement


Location Record data (two sets, covering each direction, first we cover westbound):

All stations listed above (by CRS code) are origins, except:
RDG (Reading) is the via point
SLO (Slough) is the Applicable location


In the eastbound direction, this is reversed, i.e. all the origins are specified as destinations.


All this actually means is that where the conditions are met, Slough is a valid Routeing Point.

The text could be better worded, but the text is ignored by journey planning software and there is no requirement for any customer to be aware of it.


True in many cases, though not for shorter distances

For example Greenford to Didcot has the choice of "Not via London" or "+Any Permitted", while Ealing Broadway to Reading only has "Not via London"


That is not the purpose, no.


There is no need for anyone to fathom it out, unless they have a job working with rail fares.



Easements are implemented for variety of reasons, such as to fix data issues, or to fix journey planners that incorrectly interpret the routeing guide.

Now, if your criticism were that the way the text is worded is not always clear, and does not always relate to what the easement is actually doing, then that would be a valid criticism.
Could you please tell me what all the above is supposed to mean to the average punter we don’t all have degrees in it
 
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JonathanH

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It is far more expensive via Paddington, it is not the passengers fault there are no direct fast trains on there route, you would need Ealing to Pad. To singles at 3.40.then Pad to Reading 50.20 anytime day return. Ealing to Reading direct 30.20 anytime day return. a difference of 27 more just to go Ealing to Paddington, surely a positive easement should apply to stop this massive difference in price would be called profiteering elsware.


Could you please tell me what all the above is supposed to mean to the average punter we don’t all have degrees in it
Why does anyone realistically need to go via Paddington to get from Ealing to Reading? The 'average punter' certainly wouldn't.

Besides, if you can find a mainline service running from platform 10, you can use Contactless.
 

yorkie

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It is far more expensive via Paddington, it is not the passengers fault there are no direct fast trains on there route, you would need Ealing to Pad. To singles at 3.40.then Pad to Reading 50.20 anytime day return.
It's 40 minutes on a direct train, twice an hour.

You'd struggle to beat that via Paddington, though if you just missed the xx05/xx35 then it would be quicker to circulate via Paddington than await the next direct train.

Using Contactless, if you didn't pass through ticket barriers at Paddington, a single journey would cost £8.80 off peak, or £17.50 peak, but I'm not sure what would happen if you did (@MikeWh could confirm).

Ealing to Reading direct 30.20 anytime day return. a difference of 27 more just to go Ealing to Paddington, surely a positive easement should apply to stop this massive difference in price would be called profiteering elsware.
I'd argue there should be +via London fares for Ealing to Reading, to bring it in line with longer distance journeys. However this has nothing to do with easements.

That said, some people may argue fares should be "simple" and that there should be one fare for any journey, with no time differential and/or no routeing differential, and that it is wrong to offer so may options for (say) Greenford to Didcot, and that one fare should be priced at a medium point between the cheap and expensive options. This is why we have to be careful when asking for fares to be "simplified".

Could you please tell me what all the above is supposed to mean to the average punter we don’t all have degrees in it
As stated above, it's a set of data to make journey planners work. The average punter does not need to understand the data.
 
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stevetay3

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Because it can be quicker as only half the GWR semi fasts are running, and the same applies from Twyford to Pad if you want to go faster via Reading, at least there is a via Reading fare for this one though much more expensive.

As for the original comment on the Birmingham to London Pad route I was merely pointing to the RG as it created this anomaly surely changing at Oxford with a any permitted ticket should be allowed onwards via either route though I would have changed at Banbury for MYB. For further information could you change at Reading and go to Waterloo.
 

mattdickinson

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Why does anyone realistically need to go via Paddington to get from Ealing to Reading? The 'average punter' certainly wouldn't.

Besides, if you can find a mainline service running from platform 10, you can use Contactless.

Contactless is valid from any platform at Paddington (although the platform 6&7 readers may give strange results)
 

JonathanH

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Contactless is valid from any platform at Paddington (although the platform 6&7 readers may give strange results)
Indeed, but the point is that with platforms 10, 11, 12 and 14 being inside one gateline a journey from Ealing Broadway to Reading with the fast train departing platform 10 doesn't involve passing any barriers whereas arriving from Ealing Broadway on those platforms and going to Reading via platforms 2 to 5 involves a touch out and in at Paddington.

(Given only one set of fares in the fare finder for Ealing Broadway to Reading, this may only be an issue in the Reading to Ealing direction.)
 

matt_world2004

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The routeing guide the biggest joke of all. eg. Passengers travelling from stations on the Greenford branch or Ealing broadway may travel via Slough, unless I am missing something what other way is there, Paddington not allowed.
Maybe it's a hangover when the one train a day went to high Wycombe. While such an easement may not be beneficial for people going Reading. It maybe because journey planners got confused for locations such as Oxford.
 

Watershed

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Are people saying go contactless via Paddington without touching in at Paddington. Is this even allowed?
When travelling on PAYG you can take any route you like - the Routeing Guide doesn't apply. The only provisos are:
On the last point, TfL doesn't actually publish what these are for the contactless-only extensions to Reading, Luton Airport Parkway etc. So I think they would find it difficult to justify imposing any maximum fares where they haven't even given you an opportunity to know what the maximum time is!

In this particular instance, if you touched out at one NR barrier line and back in at another at Paddington, I suspect you would be charged for two separate journeys, Ealing to Paddington and Paddington to Reading. But if you touched out at the LU barrier line and then in at the NR barrier line, I think you would be charged the much lower Ealing to Reading fare, where there is only one (default) route, because the OSI would join up the two journeys into one. There is no such OSI for NR to NR as far as I know.
 

stevetay3

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When travelling on PAYG you can take any route you like - the Routeing Guide doesn't apply. The only provisos are:
On the last point, TfL doesn't actually publish what these are for the contactless-only extensions to Reading, Luton Airport Parkway etc. So I think they would find it difficult to justify imposing any maximum fares where they haven't even given you an opportunity to know what the maximum time is!

In this particular instance, if you touched out at one NR barrier line and back in at another at Paddington, I suspect you would be charged for two separate journeys, Ealing to Paddington and Paddington to Reading. But if you touched out at the LU barrier line and then in at the NR barrier line, I think you would be charged the much lower Ealing to Reading fare, where there is only one (default) route, because the OSI would join up the two journeys into one. There is no such OSI for NR to NR as far as I know.
All seams a bit dodgy to me, if there were an easement non of this would matter.
 

Taunton

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"Journeys to or from ... Ealing Broadway ... and West Drayton to Reading and beyond may travel via Slough."

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how else would you possibly do it, other than travel via Slough ?

Is this aimed at journeys like Greenford to Birmingham, where the "shortest route" is via West Ruislip and High Wycombe?
 

Watershed

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All seams a bit dodgy to me, if there were an easement non of this would matter.
How is any of it dodgy? You are allowed to take any route you like when taking PAYG. You might be charged more for certain routes or journeys than others, but that's the corollary of that flexibility.

You're never going to get an easement saying "all journeys from Ealing to Reading may travel via Paddington, even on 'not via London' tickets". The closest would be a new route of ticket - something like "+Via London" or "London not Und". That would make it very simple and easy to understand what's going on rather than hiding things in an easement that no member of the public is realistically going to know exists.
 

JonathanH

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But if you touched out at the LU barrier line and then in at the NR barrier line, I think you would be charged the much lower Ealing to Reading fare, where there is only one (default) route, because the OSI would join up the two journeys into one. There is no such OSI for NR to NR as far as I know.
It is certainly an interesting question. There is only one published route from Ealing Broadway to Reading but it is quite possible for there to be unpublished fares in the Contactless system to cover 'unusual' journeys.

In the Reading to Ealing direction, there will clearly be a minimum charge of the Reading to Paddington fare for touching out on the barriers at Paddington before doing anything else.

In terms of what appears on Contactless journey records, there are only two gatelines defined at Paddington mainline station. Paddington (National Rail) and Paddington (Heathrow Express) although there have been past reports on this forum of the 2-5 barriers charging the Heathrow Express fares when TfL Rail services run from those platforms.

The platform 6/7 gateline will always break a journey eg no OSI, even if used to somewhere other than Heathrow.
 

Watershed

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In the Reading to Ealing direction, there will clearly be a minimum charge of the Reading to Paddington fare for touching out on the barriers at Paddington before doing anything else.
Are you sure? The contactless system isn't like Oyster; charges are determined by the back-office systems so it is perfectly possible for journeys to cost less if you extend them through an OSI. Oyster can't do the same thing because charges are determined at a local level (though I understand the back-office capping may now fix this, albeit retrospectively).

As you say, it might be that there's a hidden fare here somewhere, but I think TfL might struggle to justify that if they charged more than the advertised fare where someone has taken advantage of an advertised OSI.
 

JonathanH

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Are you sure? The contactless system isn't like Oyster; charges are determined by the back-office systems so it is perfectly possible for journeys to cost less if you extend them through an OSI. Oyster can't do the same thing because charges are determined at a local level (though I understand the back-office capping may now fix this, albeit retrospectively).
To be honest I hadn't considered whether that might be the case because I would usually aim to avoid making such a journey based on the belief that it would be set up to charge the higher fare.

One to try out some time when I would expect to reach a cap.
 

matt_world2004

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I think there.may be an osi between the national rail platforms (except platform 6-7) this is because OSIs aren't smart they are just set to be a set of gatelines that will set up a through journey to each other they can't tell if you change mode or going back the same way.
 

akm

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There is only one published route from Ealing Broadway to Reading but it is quite possible for there to be unpublished fares in the Contactless system to cover 'unusual' journeys.

I know that Single Fare Finder suppresses certain 'illogical' journeys (though the back office will always charge you something), but I don't believe it ever suppresses some of the routes for a given journey it does display

I think there.may be an osi between the national rail platforms (except platform 6-7) this is because OSIs aren't smart they are just set to be a set of gatelines that will set up a through journey to each other they can't tell if you change mode or going back the same way.

There's no NR-NR OSI at Paddington.

I'm pretty sure that

entry @ Ealing Broadway, exit @ Paddington NR, entry @ Paddington NR, exit @ Reading

will be charged as two journeys by contactless.

Conversely, if you enter at Ealing Broadway and travel on the Underground, emerge at Paddington LU, then Paddington NR to Reading, then you'll be charged the only available Ealing -> Reading fare - if you stay within the (unpublished, as noted above) maximum journey time.
 

stevetay3

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This is all meaninglessness to the average passenger, three or six different fares for the same journey via Slough, Paddington or direct with ticket, oyster or contactless. Why is the public not better informed about all this, I can now see why people can end up with a criminal record just for getting on the wrong liveried train.

Could someone please explain NR-NR OSI at Paddington please.
 

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It seems to me that the easement is completely irrelevant since the addition of Hayes & Harlington as a routeing point in 2007 (indeed, even Ealing Broadway is a routeing point itself nowadays) and should have been deleted many years ago.
 

JonathanH

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This is all meaninglessness to the average passenger, three or six different fares for the same journey via Slough, Paddington or direct with ticket, oyster or contactless. Why is the public not better informed about all this, I can now see why people can end up with a criminal record just for getting on the wrong liveried train.

Could someone please explain NR-NR OSI at Paddington please.
This is just a problem of the railway being in a period of transition whereby a new operator has introduced services on the Reading to Paddington route and it has a different fare structure, which some see as highly simplified, charged solely on a point to point basis, but the old fares still exist alongside.

There is a view that government (and railway operator) policy is that the TfL structure will be adopted in the near future on this route but to do so will create some losers as well as winners. There are also practical difficulties about this (Contactless PAYG) being the only fare structure so they have to coexist for a period. A one-off change in December 2019 might not have been acceptable but, to take your point about confusion, it would have been immediate rather than drawn out.

In practice, most regular users learn what is the best value for their journeys and use Contactless or 'paper tickets' depending on which will work best for them. An occasional user might look into what will be best before travelling.

The public is informed about fares on Oyster and Contactless - it is all on TfL's Single Fare Finder.

"NR-NR OSI" means that there is no "out of station interchange" (OSI) between the Network Rail barriers on platforms 10 to 14 and those on platforms 2 to 5. Essentially, that if you use Contactless at Paddington, going through any set of barriers on the mainline station and then another will end the first journey and start a new one. There are very few journeys where someone would travel in and out of Paddington in any case (although I note the point you have raised about there only being 1tph GWR service on the relief line currently).
 

yorkie

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Are people saying go contactless via Paddington without touching in at Paddington. Is this even allowed?
You touch IN at your origin and OUT at your destination.

When interchanging, you may need to tap out and back in again.
All seams a bit dodgy to me, if there were an easement non of this would matter.
Routeing Guide easements are not applicable to Contactless/Oyster PAYG; it's a separate system.
 

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