Passing Through Zone 1 on a 2-5 Travelcard

[themeone]

Next Saturday I want to travel by London Overground from West Croydon to Haggerston. I only have a zones 2-5 travelcard, but the train will stop at Shoreditch which is Zone 1.

What's the best / easiest way to pay the excess please?

 

[SS4]

If you're using Oyster you can tap in and out and the right fare will be charged if I recall correctly

 

[yorkie]

Next Saturday I want to travel by London Overground from West Croydon to Haggerston. I only have a zones 2-5 travelcard, but the train will stop at Shoreditch which is Zone 1.

What's the best / easiest way to pay the excess please?

You must ensure you touch in , and out, at the start and end of your journey.

You must also ensure you have sufficient PAYG balance.

Providing you do this, you will encounter no problems, and you will be automatically charged the excess, if any excess is deemed to be due (it might not be, for some journeys via Zone 1).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you have the Travelcard on an Oystercard, SS4 and Yorkie are correct.

If you have an Oystercard, but the travelcard is a paper version, you could 'touch in' at any station between Brockley and Whitechapel (inclusive) and 'touch out' at Hoxton or Haggerston for the cheapest fare (though you might have to use different trains for this approach).

If you do not have an Oystercard, or do not wish to use it, you would need a ticket to cover Whitechapel to Hoxton.

 

[alexjames]

I fail to see why you should pay the excess given that you are not setting foot in Z1.

Chances of being caught are similar to those of winning the lottery. I've never seen a RPI on LO. And that is probably because none are deployed at weekends.

Keep your cash in your wallet - there is no equitable argument to support an additional payment for passing through a station that really should not be included in Z1.

 

[Max]

I fail to see why you should pay the excess given that you are not setting foot in Z1.

Chances of being caught are similar to those of winning the lottery. I've never seen a RPI on LO. And that is probably because none are deployed at weekends.

Keep your cash in your wallet - there is no equitable argument to support an additional payment for passing through a station that really should not be included in Z1.

To be fair, it's not up to the passenger to decide whether or not Shoreditch High Street should or shouldn't be in zone 1. The fact of the matter is that it's in zone 1, and therefore a via zone 1 fare is payable. Whether or not the OP might want to chance it, based on the chance of getting caught, is another matter. But we can't encourage that, especially not when he/she came on here to ask how to pay!

 

[causton]

I fail to see why you should pay the excess given that you are not setting foot in Z1.

Unfortunately they are setting foot in Zone 1, despite you thinking that just because they are not alighting means they are not... I take it with your 'advice' you would be happy to pay their penalty fare if they took your word and got caught?

 

[bb21]

I fail to see why you should pay the excess given that you are not setting foot in Z1.

Chances of being caught are similar to those of winning the lottery. I've never seen a RPI on LO. And that is probably because none are deployed at weekends.

Keep your cash in your wallet - there is no equitable argument to support an additional payment for passing through a station that really should not be included in Z1.

Ridiculous advice. :roll:

 

[transmanche]

Keep your cash in your wallet - there is no equitable argument to support an additional payment for passing through a station that really should not be included in Z1.

I've often seen people complaining that Shoreditch LO shouldn't be in Z1, simply because Shoreditch LU was in Z2.

But have a look at this old bus map, back from 1999 when bus fares were zonal too. You can clearly see that the zone boundary 'bulged' considerably to keep Shoreditch LU station in Z2, when really it should have been in Z1.

The area around Shoreditch LO station is clearly in Z1 and the Z1/2 boundary runs along Pearson Street, which is just a few yards north of Hoxton LO station.

So - annoying as it may be - putting Shoreditch LO in Z1 and Hoxton LO on the Z1/2 boundary is completely fair.

 

[alexjames]

BB21 says its "ridiculous advice."

Reasons, please, for such a bald assertion.

Gaming NR/LO/LUL etc in return for their crap service/crap trains/stupid pricing etc is a citizen's duty. If we, the more politically aware section of society for whom it is obvious that LU/NR etc could be operated in a far more sensible fashion do not do it then we will be stuck with an unsatisfactory transport system for ever. And I think that few forum members would be in favour of that.

 

[maniacmartin]

I have encountered RPIs numerous times on the Overground, including at weekends.

 

[causton]

BB21 says its "ridiculous advice."

Reasons, please, for such a bald assertion.

Gaming NR/LO/LUL etc in return for their crap service/crap trains/stupid pricing etc is a citizen's duty.

Going to court for fare evasion is not, however. There are better ways to make a point than simply not paying for a journey.

 

[transmanche]

BB21 says its "ridiculous advice."

Reasons, please, for such a bald assertion.

I'm with bb21 here. The advice is "ridiculous" because taking that route involves travelling through Z1, and if caught doing so without a Z1 ticket (or validated Oyster with sufficient credit) will result in a PF (as a minimum).

Oh and doing something you know to be against the law simply because you don't think you'll get caught, is not generally something I'd advise.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you want to travel tomorrow, you're in luck, as there's engineering work on the Overground which means that there won't be any trains north of New Cross Gate on the East London line.

Take a train from East Croydon to New Cross Gate, then change to Rail Replacement Bus service X. Every time I've been on this rail replacement service my ticket has never been checked and I've never been told to touch in. Obviously have some PAYG credit on your Oyster card to cover any change in LO's policies.

I've used this RRB service between Surrey Quays and Shoreditch at a weekend and it's been frequent, plenty of seats and there is no traffic to get held up in in the City on a Sunday

 

[bb21]

BB21 says its "ridiculous advice."

Reasons, please, for such a bald assertion.

Gaming NR/LO/LUL etc in return for their crap service/crap trains/stupid pricing etc is a citizen's duty. If we, the more politically aware section of society for whom it is obvious that LU/NR etc could be operated in a far more sensible fashion do not do it then we will be stuck with an unsatisfactory transport system for ever. And I think that few forum members would be in favour of that.

If you need me to explain to you why your advice is ridiculous then you simply should not be giving anyone advice.

Do whatever you like in your own time. Don't play with other people's future (and money).

 

[TEW]

Chances of being caught are similar to those of winning the lottery. I've never seen a RPI on LO. And that is probably because none are deployed at weekends.

I had my ticket checked by a pair of RPIs on LO yesterday(Saturday) morning at 8am, probably the time you'd least expect to have a ticket checked. I also recently had my ticket checked around 8pm on a Sunday evening.

 

[alexjames]

"If you need me to explain to you why your advice is ridiculous then you simply should not be giving anyone advice".

Not that I am giving advice. I merely point out that those who think that Haggerston's inclusion in the Z1 listing is indefensible and that not paying for that place being in Z1 is a reasonable discharge of a citizen's duty, and is an entirely equitable and wholly defensible course of action. And I have no regard for the bylaws or whatever legalities that are there to say otherwise. They are merely LT's attempt to maximise revenue from those unfortunates who do not understand how the system works. And, of course, there is little prospect of detection in the circumstances mentioned by the OP. And in response to somebody above in this thread, I will mention that I have not seen a RPI or equivalent on a LU or LO train for at least the last five years and I write that as a six day per week system user, albeit at off peak hours.

 

[transmanche]

I merely point out that those who think that Haggerston's inclusion in the Z1 listing is indefensible

Haggerston isn't in Z1 - I assume you meant Shoreditch. And as I pointed out above, geographically Shoreditch clearly does belong in Z1.

 

[MikeWh]

"If you need me to explain to you why your advice is ridiculous then you simply should not be giving anyone advice".

Not that I am giving advice. I merely point out that those who think that Haggerston's inclusion in the Z1 listing is indefensible and that not paying for that place being in Z1 is a reasonable discharge of a citizen's duty, and is an entirely equitable and wholly defensible course of action. And I have no regard for the bylaws or whatever legalities that are there to say otherwise. They are merely LT's attempt to maximise revenue from those unfortunates who do not understand how the system works. And, of course, there is little prospect of detection in the circumstances mentioned by the OP. And in response to somebody above in this thread, I will mention that I have not seen a RPI or equivalent on a LU or LO train for at least the last five years and I write that as a six day per week system user, albeit at off peak hours.

You may hold that view, but it is entirely inappropriate for you to suggest it in response to a request for help on how to make the journey in question legally. This forum never condones or supports illegal activities, particularly not in this section offering advice on how to do things correctly.

If you persist with this line of argument you may find that the forum staff decide to restrict your ability to contribute here.

 

[bb21]

"If you need me to explain to you why your advice is ridiculous then you simply should not be giving anyone advice".

Not that I am giving advice. I merely point out that those who think that Haggerston's inclusion in the Z1 listing is indefensible and that not paying for that place being in Z1 is a reasonable discharge of a citizen's duty, and is an entirely equitable and wholly defensible course of action. And I have no regard for the bylaws or whatever legalities that are there to say otherwise. They are merely LT's attempt to maximise revenue from those unfortunates who do not understand how the system works. And, of course, there is little prospect of detection in the circumstances mentioned by the OP. And in response to somebody above in this thread, I will mention that I have not seen a RPI or equivalent on a LU or LO train for at least the last five years and I write that as a six day per week system user, albeit at off peak hours.

Stop digging.

As I said, do whatever you like when travelling yourself. I can't care less. You are not allowed however to suggest this course of action to a fellow forum member who is looking for advice. This is neither the time nor place to air whatever agenda you have. Irresponsible is putting this mildly.

 

[Squaddie]

You must ensure you touch in , and out, at the start and end of your journey.

You must also ensure you have sufficient PAYG balance.

Providing you do this, you will encounter no problems, and you will be automatically charged the excess, if any excess is deemed to be due.

What does the system do if you use a Z2-5 Travelcard on Oyster but have no PAYG balance?

It must surely "know" that you travelled through Z1 in order to get from West Croydon to Haggerston, because there is no other reasonable route you could have taken (you could travel via the Jubilee Line to Stratford to avoid Z1, but presumably you'd have to prove you went that way by using a pink validator en route), but if there is no PAYG balance from which to deduct the excess will it let you leave the station?

 

[themeone]

I omitted to say that I hold an Oyster Travelcard, and realised as I was going to bed last night that any excess due will be deducted automatically from my PAYG balance when I touch out at Haggerston.

I suppose if there is no PAYG balance, in theory the gates at Haggerston should not let you exit.

 

[RichardN]

You could got via Clapham Junction, the WLL and NLL in which case you touch on the pink validators to let the system know you went the long and cheap way round.

I think the reason for the z1 is certain tocs strongly objected to fare abstraction from passengers going to Canary Wharf. Southern deal with the problem by making the connections with the ELL from East Croydon awful...

 

[DelayRepay]

I omitted to say that I hold an Oyster Travelcard, and realised as I was going to bed last night that any excess due will be deducted automatically from my PAYG balance when I touch out at Haggerston.

I suppose if there is no PAYG balance, in theory the gates at Haggerston should not let you exit.

I believe they may let you out, and your PAYG balance will become "overdrawn". They your Oyster card will cease working (both for PAYG and as a Travelcard) until you top up to clear the debt.

The best thing to do is to make sure you have enough credit, touch in and out at the start and end of the journey and let the system sort it out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And, of course, there is little prospect of detection in the circumstances mentioned by the OP. And in response to somebody above in this thread, I will mention that I have not seen a RPI or equivalent on a LU or LO train for at least the last five years and I write that as a six day per week system user, albeit at off peak hours.

On the other hand, I only use the London Overground occasionally, usually at weekends. I've only used it three times this year, and on two of those trips I've met an RPI. These trips didn't involve travel via zone 1 but it does prove that there RPIs out at weekends, and if the OP were to follow your advice, the OP could well find themselves with a penalty fare to pay or worse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
NB - I am all for saving money, but not by breaking the law. You only have to look at the Disputes and Prosecutions section of this forum to see that people do get caught, and it usually ends up costing them a lot more than a Zone 1 fare (£2.20 I believe) to resolve the matter.

 

[Squaddie]

Gaming NR/LO/LUL etc in return for their crap service/crap trains/stupid pricing etc is a citizen's duty. If we, the more politically aware section of society for whom it is obvious that LU/NR etc could be operated in a far more sensible fashion do not do it then we will be stuck with an unsatisfactory transport system for ever.

London Overground is generally an excellent transport system, with new rolling stock, new or refurbished stations, frequent services and extremely reasonable fares.

I am currently using the Overground every day to travel to and from a client's premises. I enjoy a service offering 8 trains per hour, none of my trains have been delayed by more than a minute in three weeks of travelling, and the 40-minute journey costs me £1.60 with an Oyster card. Regular users of, say, Arriva Trains Wales could only dream of such service.

And, touching on another subject often debated heatedly here, I am very impressed by the Overground etiquette that governs the taking and offering of seats en route. Londoners (and those who have moved here from elsewhere in the world) are obviously not as rude as some on this forum believe them to be.

 

[yorkie]

You could go via Clapham Junction, the WLL and NLL in which case you touch on the pink validators to let the system know you went the long and cheap way round.

Have you tested this?

If so, that's interesting, thanks.

If not, then while I agree it should do that, I don't know how you can be sure, given that there's no fare listed in the Single Fares Finder avoiding Zone 1??

 

[RichardN]

Have you tested this?

If so, that's interesting, thanks.

If not, then while I agree it should do that, I don't know how you can be sure, given that there's no fare listed in the Single Fares Finder avoiding Zone 1??

That is what the pink readers do. Tell the oyster system you are going a cheaper route. I've been to Hoxton from Horsham, the long way round using my paper zone 2-5 ticket so untested...

 

[yorkie]

That is what the pink readers do. Tell the oyster system you are going a cheaper route.

I agree, but for a PAYG user, they won't reduce the fare to a non-existent fare! (though, presumably, the Oyster Helpdesk may over-ride it).

It may well be the case that, for a Travelcard user, they ensure you are not charged for a journey for which a PAYG fare does not exist, but has this actually been tested? If so, that's really useful to know, but I'm trying to ask for clarification that this is definitely the case and not just theoretically.

 

[hassaanhc]

That is my experience too, that the gates let you out even if you enter into negative, as long as you touched in at the beginning. This works for Travelcard and PAYG mix if you touched in within the Travelcard zones, and it doesn't care about how much PAYG you've got at the beginning as it doesn't know where you're travelling to! (Obviously not into negative though) For PAYG alone it will let you in if you have enough credit for the cheapest journey, so will have to top up at the end in both cases if it enters negative.

I believe they may let you out, and your PAYG balance will become "overdrawn". They your Oyster card will cease working (both for PAYG and as a Travelcard) until you top up to clear the debt.

The best thing to do is to make sure you have enough credit, touch in and out at the start and end of the journey and let the system sort it out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

 

[maniacmartin]

Letting you go overdrawn once is why Oyster cards have a deposit - so you can't bin the card and and be better off if you go overdrawn. Once you go overdrawn, your card will not operate the gates until you top it up, even at stations covered by your Travelcard.