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Past TOCs vs Present ones

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stut

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Why would you do that? Just order a fleet of 158s with 175 interiors (but softer seats) or 175s with softer seats and the corridor-fitted ends of a 158/377 instead of 175-style slab ends. Maybe a mix of 3-car and 4-car sets rather than 2-car and 3-car sets as the orriginal 175 order was.

The EMT-refurbed 158s are very comfortable trains - a few more tables (obviously, you'd need more units) and they'd do a great job on IR routes.

I do quite like 170s, but my goodness do the seats need more legroom.
 
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Rhydgaled

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The EMT-refurbed 158s are very comfortable trains
As are ATW's 158s (not sure if they are better than EMT's, never used EMT's), I prefer 158s to 175s in almost every way except that 175s have much better legroom in airline (and perhaps more tables than the refurb 158s), which is why I suggested a 175-style interior (but with softer seats, the 175 seats are a decent shape but rock hard).
 

MidnightFlyer

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The range of routes Central offered were far better than todays. EG Coventry - Nottingham used to be a through service.


Was that service via New St and Derby or Nuneaton and Leicester (via Bedworth)? If it's the latter (I suspect it wasn't though) it would have stopped by now anyway on account of the complex trackwork and lack of paths now at Nuneaton, regardless of whether it was one TOC or two.
 

SprinterMan

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As are ATW's 158s (not sure if they are better than EMT's, never used EMT's), I prefer 158s to 175s in almost every way except that 175s have much better legroom in airline (and perhaps more tables than the refurb 158s), which is why I suggested a 175-style interior (but with softer seats, the 175 seats are a decent shape but rock hard).

I have used both ATW's and EMT's 158s and both are very good, as while they both have the same type of seats, I think you get more legroom in an ATW 158, and they have been fitted with PA systems, while EMT's have not. ATW's are reportedly slightly more reliable also.

Adam :D
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It was originally a Liverpool Lime Street to Stansted via Birmingham service, although I do not know whether this was originally part of the Regional Railways Midland Express network or whether it was a Central Trains concoction. I suspect the former, but I don't know for sure.

It was Birmingham-Cambridge before that, and extended and made hourly when the airport opened.
For a while it was tacked onto Chester/Shrewsbury trains at some hours (which sometimes went to places like Grimsby!).
This was when Birmingham-Liverpool was a mix of XC and Central 323s, later becoming 170s Liverpool-Stansted when XC pulled out of Liverpool.
 

jopsuk

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There was a period that the Stansted diesel service was a Virgin XC operated 158 service...
 

2Dogbox

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I would love nottingham - Lincoln to go over to XC and be extended to Birmingham.

A very high number of passesngers on Lincoln - Nottingham services have connections onwards to Derby, Birmingham New Street and the South West. Getting rid of the Birmingham services by splitting franchises was a bad idea. I remember a direct train in the morning even went from Birmingham New Street to Sleaford.

Lincoln had services to Crewe and Aberwystwyth under Central in it's early days.
 

Failed Unit

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A very high number of passesngers on Lincoln - Nottingham services have connections onwards to Derby, Birmingham New Street and the South West. Getting rid of the Birmingham services by splitting franchises was a bad idea. I remember a direct train in the morning even went from Birmingham New Street to Sleaford.

Lincoln had services to Crewe and Aberwystwyth under Central in it's early days.

I know we are going off topic a bit, but the history of the Lincoln services from my memory.

When the 150/1s ruled the line the service was Lincoln - Birmingham New Street, by the late 1980s this was changed from Cleethorpes - Birmingham New Street.

Alternate hours,
Cleethorpes and all stations to Newark NorthGate, Newark Castle, Nottingham, then onwards to Birmingham
Lincoln and every shack to Nottingham then onwards to Birmingham
154002 was the common performer on the 0730 Lincoln - Birmingham which meant it was often in Market Rasen at about midday :lol:

Cleethorpes - Newark was split off again after a couple of years, which sped up the journey to Lincoln (from Birmingham) and made little difference to Cleethorpes as the Newark shunt was slow.

When the 158s came along BR didn't think that we deserved to remain connected to Birmingham and diverted the trains to Coventry. This is how it remained until privatisation, then Central train gave us Grimsby - Birmingham New Street via Derby again. At one point Lincoln had 2x trains per hour to Birmingham, one via Liecester and the other via Derby.

Lincoln - Nottingham returned to hourly via Liecester, then DfT split the service with the but you can travel direct to Barrow-upon-Soar (who cares)

It is a pity when CT reduced Lincoln - Nottingham to hourly they didn't take away the route via Liecester, maybe then we would be in XC but we will never know.

Lincoln - Coventry was diverted to Birmingham because of the WCML works.
 

2Dogbox

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Thanks Failed Unit, really good info there, really interesting to see how the service has changed around here. It would be nice to see connections to Birmingham back. I think it would also be worth splitting ivanhoe services off Lincoln to Nottingham, indeed as you mentioned It's highly unusual to see any passengers travelling direct to places like Barrow or Sileby. Lincoln - Leicester also suffer from bad performance issues, get delayed over the flat crossing and the train is then late all the way until its return working when it gets to Nottingham and has a bit of 'padding' .
 
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I would say that the former TOC known as British Rail was much better than the rapacious private ventures and bus companies who know run our trains

You really do need to give those rose tinted spectacles a good wipe.
An express service to King's Cross from Cambridge making four stops and taking an hour and twenty minutes in grotty old mark 1 stock.
Lincoln to Sheffield in a two car Cravens with filthy seats and so much window rattling noise in the power car you had to almost shout at your travelling companion.
Fenchurch Street to Southend in old E.M.U.s that rock and rolled all over the place to-gether with signalling equipment that failed on a weekly basis. Not for nothing was it called the misery line.
Nah, you can keep yer British Rail, apart from the fares there's been an enormous improvement in the services and staff.
 

Zoe

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Not with the dead hands of the treasury around it's throat it couldn't.
There was investment in the railways in the 1980s and early 1990s but this ended when privatization was impending. It can't be assumed that this investment would not have continued had it not been for privatization.
 

Schnellzug

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The investment in the 80s, be it remembered, which gave us two-car DMUs for everything, and the genius of Sectorisation of the freight sector (and how much traffic was won during that, ... er), and ECML electrifiction that was done so cheaply that the Wires come down if a sparrow perches on them.
 

yorksrob

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The investment in the 80s, be it remembered, which gave us two-car DMUs for everything, and the genius of Sectorisation of the freight sector (and how much traffic was won during that, ... er), and ECML electrifiction that was done so cheaply that the Wires come down if a sparrow perches on them.

Well, those 2-car DMU's have proved popular enough amongst the normals to generate increasing passenger use. They should have built a few more 2-car DMU's during the past fifteen years, then we might have been able to double up a few.

And don't get me started on electrification.
 

Failed Unit

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Not with the dead hands of the treasury around it's throat it couldn't.

Whether you like them or not sprinterisation took place under BR. So did the initial batch of networkers. The mk1 stock needed to go, I am sure more networkers would follow even if it was to keep factories open prior to elections (like the 365 order). As zoe states, replacements stop getting ordered because of privatisation. Why order new trains for the west coast mainline if angel trains will. BR may have gone ahead with IC250 if we had not privatised (we never know) XC would certainly not be MU, I suspect it would have being mk3s hauled by 90s under the wires and who knows away from them.
 

Schnellzug

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Well, those 2-car DMU's have proved popular enough amongst the normals to generate increasing passenger use. They should have built a few more 2-car DMU's during the past fifteen years, then we might have been able to double up a few.

And don't get me started on electrification.

It's not the DMUs per se, it's the way that (apart from a small batch of 158s) everything had to be 2 cars, even when they took over routes from e.g. 5 coach hauled stock, with no increase in frequency.
 

D1009

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It's not the DMUs per se, it's the way that (apart from a small batch of 158s) everything had to be 2 cars, even when they took over routes from e.g. 5 coach hauled stock, with no increase in frequency.

Not always the case. After Liverpool/Manchester to the West of England services were taken off the Marches route, a Crewe - Cardiff service was introduced formed with Swindon built 3 car DMUs. These proved inadequate and were replaced with 5-6 coach loco hauled sets with class 25s, later in turn replaced by class 33s. There were 7 services each way per day. When these were replaced by the then new class 155s, this frequency doubled, and then increased further to 16 trains per day. Costs went down and traffic went up.
 

yorksrob

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It's not the DMUs per se, it's the way that (apart from a small batch of 158s) everything had to be 2 cars, even when they took over routes from e.g. 5 coach hauled stock, with no increase in frequency.

You may have a point there. I always think it's a waste of the concept of a multiple unit if you're not going to use them in multiple to meet higher demand.

I do think "sprinterisation" left the regional railway with a much surer future though (albeit not as comfortable as one with rakes of carriages admittedly). In that respect I think they were an excellent investment.
 

Bellwater

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Well, those 2-car DMU's have proved popular enough amongst the normals to generate increasing passenger use. They should have built a few more 2-car DMU's during the past fifteen years, then we might have been able to double up a few.

And don't get me started on electrification.

Normals..Not heard that for a while!

 
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