Pathing of trains at Surbiton platforms 3/4

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infobleep

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Yesterday morning I was on the 9.22 Woking to Surbiton service. As we neared Surbiton we slowed down. Eventually we got into Surbiton at 9.40, about 3 minutes late. We arrived into platform 3 and I could see the 9.41 semi-fast to Waterloo on platform 4.

Looking at RTT I could swe that 9.41 got to Hampton Court Junction at 9.37 and my train 9.38. At first I thought perhaps the signalman patched the tain in front of us. However the 9.11 fast from Southampton and the 9.11 semi-fast leave at the same time so perhaps that wasn't the case.

Although often I'll see a 38 minutes passed train leave Surbiton on time, according to National Rail Enquiries App and then see the 41 minutes passed service depart a minute late, despite being on time at Hinchley Wood. In both cases they will be using platform 4.
 
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gazr

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I'm confused... The UP (towards Waterloo) platforms are 1 & 2, and there are no connections over to 3 & 4 that I can see?
 

HarleyDavidson

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Yesterday morning I was on the 9.22 Woking to Surbiton service. As we neared Surbiton we slowed down. Eventually we got into Surbiton at 9.40, about 3 minutes late. We arrived into platform 3 and I could see the 9.41 semi-fast to Waterloo on platform 4.

Looking at RTT I could swe that 9.41 got to Hampton Court Junction at 9.37 and my train 9.38. At first I thought perhaps the signalman patched the tain in front of us. However the 9.11 fast from Southampton and the 9.11 semi-fast leave at the same time so perhaps that wasn't the case.

Although often I'll see a 38 minutes passed train leave Surbiton on time, according to National Rail Enquiries App and then see the 41 minutes passed service depart a minute late, despite being on time at Hinchley Wood. In both cases they will be using platform 4.

Couldn't have platform 4 is the Hampton Court loop, you can go in the down direction only, unless you come from Hampton Court on the reversible line, but you have a fixed red on the London end of 4 and points to stop you.

The timetable in the Surbiton aarea is the biggest pile of dung going, because in their infinite wisdom the TPU have reduced the headways down from the correct size to just 2.5 minutes, which doesn't work and can't work and causes congestion.
 
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The Planner

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So if train A is in front of you and you are 2½ behind, you cannot get a green?
 

HarleyDavidson

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So if train A is in front of you and you are 2½ behind, you cannot get a green?


Nope. And with the "professional driving policy" you mustn't chase either, so I do about 37 mph and just trundle along and if it screws it up then that's fine and down to the TPUs ineptitude.
 

The Planner

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So what should it be? 3, more? Ineptitude or not, your TOC will quite probably refuse any fix proposed.
 

HarleyDavidson

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I believe that it was and should be 3 minutes. But they reduced it to "aid performance" through the Raynes Park corridor, when in fact it does exactly the opposite.

If you have access to Tyrell you'll see it on a regular basis. Delays of xx minutes due to congestion between Surbiton and Waterloo.

It used to work on the old timings, but doesn't anymore.
 

Bald Rick

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It's been 2.5 min headways on the fasts London side of Surbiton for a long time, otherwise 24tph would not have been achievable.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Not on about fasts. So with all due respect please refrain from interrupting my conversation with ThePlanner.

Thank you.

PS. That doesn't work either, all it does is end up in a mess and with late return departures.
 

zoneking

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I have noticed that when I get the Guildford via Cobham train, it always slows down to almost a stop between Berrylands & Surbiton before speeding up again when it approaches platform 4. Whey does it do this? Why can't it go straight into platform 4 at a steady speed, or, preferably, platform 3? The Basingstoke train approaches platform 3 soon after, but can't leave until the Guildford train has left platform 4 and switches from the Hampton Court line.
 
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louis97

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I have noticed that when a I get the Guildford via Cobham train, it always slows down to almost a stop between Berrylands & Surbiton before speeding up again when it approaches platform 4. Whey does it do this? Why can't it go straight into platform 4 at a steady speed, or, preferably, platform 3? The Basingstoke train approaches platform 3 soon after, but can't leave until the Guildford train has left platform 4 and switches from the Hampton Court line.

Sounds like approach control into Platform 4, the train will get a red until it is nearly at the signal. The diverging speed is too slow to allow anything else. The same applies to trains coming from the fast line into Platform 3.

The Guildford train has to use platform 4 as the Basingstoke train needs to arrive Surbiton too soon after it. Holding the Basingstoke train up isn't really an option as it has trains behind it on the down fast.
 
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HarleyDavidson

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Access to the Hampton Court loop is approach released (although you always treat it as it's not going to clear), it's set to approx 20mph, the speed over the set of points at the London end of the loop.

Almost all down 2Gxx services are booked via the loop, with a few peak & late night exceptions as they clash with the 2Lxx Basingstoke services (poor planning!), 2Fxx services are also booked via the loop, again with some peak/late exceptions, however if you're crafty you and follow the timings closely you can sometimes if you have a smart signaller at Woking, go into Platform 3 (Down Slow) after the Alton has departed.

This has the benefit of being able to run in considerably quicker and depart at maximum acceleration as you don't have to dawdle in/out of the loop at 20 and then get up to 30 for the turnout onto the down slow before accelerating hard to get to Esher on time, which is tricky and the timings are such that you will lose time going down and with initial step 3 (full service) braking being frowned upon these days, you can easily miss the connection at Weybridge for Chertsey, it then screws up two mainliner's at Woking too as you have to cross the down lines into the bay (what idiot ever designed that should have been shot!):roll:
 

louis97

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Access to the Hampton Court loop is approach released (although you always treat it as it's not going to clear), it's set to approx 20mph, the speed over the set of points at the London end of the loop.

For the benefit of zoneking, train speed has no effect on approach control on the day, the signal clears when the train reaches a certain point (normally a specific track circuit). It is at this point that the signal will clear, although sometimes a number of seconds is specified that said track circuit must be occupied for. However train speed may be taken into consideration when the signalling system was designed, this being the location of the track circuit joint and/or the number of seconds it must be occupied for.
 

infobleep

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Couldn't have platform 4 is the Hampton Court loop, you can go in the down direction only, unless you come from Hampton Court on the reversible line, but you have a fixed red on the London end of 4 and points to stop you.

The timetable in the Surbiton aarea is the biggest pile of dung going, because in their infinite wisdom the TPU have reduced the headways down from the correct size to just 2.5 minutes, which doesn't work and can't work and causes congestion.

Thanks for your reply. Very interesting. I'm only catching up now, now that the form has been fixed for Tapatalk. My thanks to all those that fixed it!

I did indeed mean platform 1.

I agree about the headway times. The 11 minutes or 41 minutes past to Waterloo is rarely on time when I catch it. This time can be on time at Hinchley Wood too.

In fact that the 8 minutes past can be considered to have left on time and the 11 minutes past still leave late.

The 9.11 fast uses platform 2, so that at least can't hold up the 9.11 as there is no 9.08. Of course they can't do that every other hour because other fast trains need to zoom through platform 2.

Occasionlly in the morning peak I've seen trains held at Surbiton. I was once raving a fast 444 train on a 455 Hampton Court stopper to Waterloo!

I have noticed that when I get the Guildford via Cobham train, it always slows down to almost a stop between Berrylands & Surbiton before speeding up again when it approaches platform 4. Whey does it do this? Why can't it go straight into platform 4 at a steady speed, or, preferably, platform 3? The Basingstoke train approaches platform 3 soon after, but can't leave until the Guildford train has left platform 4 and switches from the Hampton Court line.

A great question I wondered about but hadn't asked myself!

Sounds like approach control into Platform 4, the train will get a red until it is nearly at the signal. The diverging speed is too slow to allow anything else. The same applies to trains coming from the fast line into Platform 3.

The Guildford train has to use platform 4 as the Basingstoke train needs to arrive Surbiton too soon after it. Holding the Basingstoke train up isn't really an option as it has trains behind it on the down fast.

The 14 and 44 minutes past services are also booked for platform 4. Sometimes they are diverted to platform 3 though. I guess it depends on if the 11 or 41 to Alton are out of the way.

Access to the Hampton Court loop is approach released (although you always treat it as it's not going to clear), it's set to approx 20mph, the speed over the set of points at the London end of the loop.

Almost all down 2Gxx services are booked via the loop, with a few peak & late night exceptions as they clash with the 2Lxx Basingstoke services (poor planning!), 2Fxx services are also booked via the loop, again with some peak/late exceptions, however if you're crafty you and follow the timings closely you can sometimes if you have a smart signaller at Woking, go into Platform 3 (Down Slow) after the Alton has departed.

This has the benefit of being able to run in considerably quicker and depart at maximum acceleration as you don't have to dawdle in/out of the loop at 20 and then get up to 30 for the turnout onto the down slow before accelerating hard to get to Esher on time, which is tricky and the timings are such that you will lose time going down and with initial step 3 (full service) braking being frowned upon these days, you can easily miss the connection at Weybridge for Chertsey, it then screws up two mainliner's at Woking too as you have to cross the down lines into the bay (what idiot ever designed that should have been shot!):roll:

Hiw many minutes does one get at Weybridge. Is it an official connection?

I've been known to miss the trains to Guildford at Woking due to late running stopping services.

The other week the 6.18 was on time at Surbiton but 12 minutes late leaving Esher. Nothing online to say way so I asked on Twitter and the staff didn't know!

It screwed up my fast 18.40 train as it blocked platform 5 and they put the 18.58 Portsmouth train into platform 4, that train departing on time of course. Not certain if it then blocked the line from platform 5 or whether we arrived after it had cleared the junction.

I knew there would be problems for making my connection. It pays to know the timetable and work out potential issues yourself. At least I was only delayed by 20 minutes. Customers for Portsmouth would be delayed by 30 minutes. These things happen though. Can't be avoid all the time.

Im sure they could sort out the 2.5 min headway. I guess nothing would happen before a new franchise, if even then.
 

Deepgreen

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Not on about fasts. So with all due respect please refrain from interrupting my conversation with ThePlanner.

Thank you.

PS. That doesn't work either, all it does is end up in a mess and with late return departures.

So we now have exclusive, two-person conversations on this 'forum'?! Extraordinary.

To quote you from another thread: "So before certain people say or do something really silly and what they may later regret, take a step back, have a breather and if you can't be civil or sensible log out for a while. Basically TAKE A CHILL PILL!"
 

infobleep

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This evening the train I was on kept slowing down and speeding up between Berrylands and Surbiton. The last train in front of it was about 12 minutes earlier but there was a fast train that would use platform 3.

I was on the 18.06 departure to Hampton Court that was running 11 minutes late by this point.

Anyone know the reason. I expected it might slow down as we approach Surbiton but it did so about 3 times. Would it be related to the fast train needing platform 3?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
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