Pay as you go for Manchester and Birmingham

[Snow1964]

DfT announcement
75 stations in West Midlands
17 in Greater Manchester

Thousands more passengers will benefit from simpler, more flexible travel from next year, under new pilot schemes confirmed by the Rail Minister today (1 February 2024).

Stations across the West Midlands and selected routes in Greater Manchester are set to be fitted with technology allowing people to simply tap-in and tap-out of their local network knowing they will pay the best fare – meaning no need to plan ahead or search for the right ticket.

The project is part of the government’s plans to reform the railways, while also delivering on Trailblazer devolution deals aimed at giving local leaders a bigger say in how the network is run.

These trials will also pave the way for the future rollout of similar technology to more stations across the North and Midlands, funded in part by £100 million reallocated from High Speed 2 (HS2), enabling the further rollout of such technology in more places.

Rail Minister, Huw Merriman, said:

We want to encourage more people back onto our trains, with tap-in technology meaning using our stations couldn’t be easier.
Our railways have a long history, but projects like these – part of the government’s wider plans for reform – will ensure they have a bright future too.
The West Midlands pilot is planned to cover 75 stations across the Transport for West Midlands (TfWM) area (including 5 currently under construction), and use existing ‘Swift’ smartcards, meaning passengers can travel seamlessly on local bus and tram services as well.

Greater Manchester’s pilot scheme is planned to include 17 stations on the Glossop to Manchester Piccadilly and Stalybridge to Victoria lines. It will use contactless bank cards and devices and will support the wider ambition to deliver full multi-modal fares and ticketing integration across bus, Metrolink, rail and cycle hire as part of the Bee Network by 2030.

In preparing the pilots, the Department for Transport (DfT), Great British Railways Transition Team (GBRTT) and Rail Delivery Group (RDG) have worked closely with TfWM, the West Midlands Rail Executive, Transport for Greater Manchester and train operators. Work will continue to finalise plans for the pilots ahead of launch in 2025.

Tap-in, tap-out train travel is on track for the West Midlands and Greater Manchester

Over 90 rail stations will be included in the 'pay as you go' pilots.

www.gov.uk

Remains to be seen if passengers get confused travelling from a touch in station to a touch out station, but middle part of their journey isn't covered.

There are now number of isolated schemes, Greater London, Bristol, Cornwall etc. But what happens if travel from one to another, pay as you go maps are going to get really messy with about 500 stations in, but about 2300 outside PAYG areas

 

[Benjwri]

DfT announcement
75 stations in West Midlands
17 in Greater Manchester

Tap-in, tap-out train travel is on track for the West Midlands and Greater Manchester

Over 90 rail stations will be included in the 'pay as you go' pilots.

www.gov.uk

Remains to be seen if passengers get confused travelling from a touch in station to a touch out station, but middle part of their journey isn't covered.

There are now number of isolated schemes, Greater London, Bristol, Cornwall etc. But what happens if travel from one to another, pay as you go maps are going to get really messy with about 500 stations in, but about 2300 outside PAYG areas

I’m glad to see the Manchester scheme using contactless rather than another smartcard to add to the collection.

I agree the contactless schemes are getting a bit crowded, however there isn’t an easy solution for that given the difficulty that would be faced rolling it out over a wider network.

 

[Haywain]

I’m glad to see the Manchester scheme using contactless rather than another smartcard to add to the collection

You're not a railcard holder then?

Remains to be seen if passengers get confused travelling from a touch in station to a touch out station, but middle part of their journey isn't covered.

Bristol area to London?

 

[Snow1964]

Bristol area to London?

It's already closer, Chippenham is in the Bristol area card, Reading is in the London area PAYG, so just a gap of about 50 miles, (or around 39 minutes by train)

 

[JonathanH]

There are now number of isolated schemes, Greater London, Bristol, Cornwall etc. But what happens if travel from one to another, pay as you go maps are going to get really messy with about 500 stations in, but about 2300 outside PAYG areas

Passengers are simply going to have to get used to the idea that pay as you go is available on a regional basis. Hopefully, the operators make this clear.

 

[Snow1964]

Passengers are simply going to have to get used to the idea that pay as you go is available on a regional basis. Hopefully, the operators make this clear.

True but an entrance gate won't reject a customer, so rather introduces a potential muddle, rather than a simplification, as to if you have correct ticket to travel.

There will always be expectation (see the multiple threads in disputes) that if pass a ticket checking point and accepted, then later hit with penalty for invalid ticket, it is unfair.

 

[JonathanH]

There will always be expectation (see the multiple threads in disputes) that if pass a ticket checking point and accepted, then later hit with penalty for invalid ticket, it is unfair.

If someone enters a ticket gate at Manchester with a ticket to Stockport, they don't expect to be able to travel to Stoke-on-Trent, even though they had a valid ticket to pass the checking point.

It is no different with PAYG, so long as there is publicity about its boundaries.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

With regard to the relatively modest number of Greater Manchester stations that seem to be included in these proposals, isn't this essentially a follow up to what was previously being discussed in mid 2023? (See below...)

Contactless pay as you go pilot coming to Greater Manchester?

To help support the ambition for full integration of local train services into the Bee Network by the end of the decade, the Mayor also confirmed today the proposed route for the contactless pilot on rail in Greater Manchester, subject to final business case approval and funding. First...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

It's already closer, Chippenham is in the Bristol area card, Reading is in the London area PAYG, so just a gap of about 50 miles, (or around 39 minutes by train)

And are people getting confused by it?

 

[Benjwri]

You're not a railcard holder then?

I am, but for a new system it really shouldn’t be that hard to add support for them with contactless, given card numbers do not change.

My point is I currently have 3 plastic cards in my wallet for rail travel, all of which could be slimmed down into 1 for my season ticket and a debit card.

Contactless is far more accessible, especially to people visiting an area. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be an alternative such as a smartcard, but contactless really should be provided for.

It's already closer, Chippenham is in the Bristol area card, Reading is in the London area PAYG, so just a gap of about 50 miles, (or around 39 minutes by train)

Given they use different cards though it’s fairly clear you can’t travel between them.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I am, but for a new system it really shouldn’t be that hard to add support for them with contactless, given card numbers do not change.

My point is I currently have 3 plastic cards in my wallet for rail travel, all of which could be slimmed down into 1 for my season ticket and a debit card.

Contactless is far more accessible, especially to people visiting an area. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be an alternative such as a smartcard, but contactless really should be provided for.

Given they use different cards though it’s fairly clear you can’t travel between them.

Maybe that's why they use a closed loop system.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Remains to be seen if passengers get confused travelling from a touch in station to a touch out station, but middle part of their journey isn't covered.

It's already closer, Chippenham is in the Bristol area card, Reading is in the London area PAYG, so just a gap of about 50 miles, (or around 39 minutes by train)

Given they use different cards though it’s fairly clear you can’t travel between them.

I accept that the distance is greater, but it seems to me that you could enter the Manchester scheme at Stalybridge to go to Piccadilly, then get a direct train to Reading and seek to exit - all using the same contactless card.

 

[JonathanH]

I accept that the distance is greater, but it seems to me that you could enter the Manchester scheme at Stalybridge to go to Piccadilly, then get a direct train to Reading and seek to exit - all using the same contactless card.

A passenger would have to be incredibly naive to think that is allowed.

 

[Watershed]

With regard to the relatively modest number of Greater Manchester stations that seem to be included in these proposals, isn't this essentially a follow up to what was previously being discussed in mid 2023? (See below...)

Contactless pay as you go pilot coming to Greater Manchester?

To help support the ambition for full integration of local train services into the Bee Network by the end of the decade, the Mayor also confirmed today the proposed route for the contactless pilot on rail in Greater Manchester, subject to final business case approval and funding. First...

www.railforums.co.uk

Isn't it common for these kinds of things to be announced multiple times so as to extract the maximum possible political capital?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

A passenger would have to be incredibly naive to think that is allowed.

Have you looked in D&R recently?

Less cynically, it will be interesting to see if anyone falls in this hole/tries it on: either way I can imagine threads coming up - either 'why have I been charged maximum fares in both Manchester and TfL?' or 'surely if I passed the barriers I was entitled to travel until I next met a barrier?' I'd like to think that @JonathanH is right and everyone will show enough common sense to not do it. But it's a test (the first?) of what happens with one railway system and separate islands of PAYG using the same payment method.

 

[Haywain]

Have you looked in D&R recently?

Have we seen any cases of travelling long distances between PAYG areas?

 

[SargeNpton]

Have we seen any cases of travelling long distances between PAYG areas?

No, but we have seen cases of passengers tapping in in the London area and coming to grief when they tried to tap out at Stansted Airport.

 

[northwichcat]

With regard to the relatively modest number of Greater Manchester stations that seem to be included in these proposals, isn't this essentially a follow up to what was previously being discussed in mid 2023? (See below...)

Contactless pay as you go pilot coming to Greater Manchester?

To help support the ambition for full integration of local train services into the Bee Network by the end of the decade, the Mayor also confirmed today the proposed route for the contactless pilot on rail in Greater Manchester, subject to final business case approval and funding. First...

www.railforums.co.uk

If the government is doing badly they'll just re-release existing news stories every few months, as journalism is dead and most news outlets (including BBC local news) will just repeat them as new news, without checking what they've already reported.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

No, but we have seen cases of passengers tapping in in the London area and coming to grief when they tried to tap out at Stansted Airport.

Given its branding as "London Stansted Airport" it's not too surprising people think it's in the London area

 

[Haywain]

No, but we have seen cases of passengers tapping in in the London area and coming to grief when they tried to tap out at Stansted Airport.

That's really not the same.

 

[sheff1]

Does the W Mids Swift card have an option to add a railcard discount in the same way as Oyster ?

As the GM scheme will seemingly only use contactless bank cards/devices, which do not support railcard discounts, the government are clearly lying when they say "selected routes in Greater Manchester are set to be fitted with technology allowing people to simply tap-in and tap-out of their local network knowing they will pay the best fare". Why am I not surprised.

A passenger would have to be incredibly naive to think that is allowed.

Or maybe the passenger is used to travelling in The Netherlands.

 

[P Binnersley]

Does the W Mids Swift card have an option to add a railcard discount in the same way as Oyster ?



Or maybe the passenger is used to travelling in The Netherlands.

The West Midlands "SwiftGo" Card (the PAYG version) does not currently have a railcard discount; but it isn't valid on trains (at the moment) so this is not an issue. Swift season tickets are valid on trains, but season tickets do not have a railcard discount.

 

[sheff1]

The West Midlands "SwiftGo" Card (the PAYG version) does not currently have a railcard discount; but it isn't valid on trains (at the moment) so this is not an issue.

But will be an issue if they don't add the facility in time for this pilot next year.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Good, seems like a good incentive for easier travel and allows easier transition (in terms of ticketing) between National Rail and the Metrolink (for Manchester) or West Midlands Metro (for Birmingham). Brings Manchester and Birmingham in line with London in terms of Pay As You Go ticketing with Contactless. Could definitely see this working in other large metropolitan areas.

 

[fandroid]

I just hope they appreciate the scope for passenger confusion during the introductory phases of these schemes. There's a strong likelihood of passengers tapping in and travelling beyond the boundary of the scheme. See Stansted Airport tales of woe if you don't believe that this could be a problem! The Railway really should introduce a a system for dealing with such incidents without going full Penalty Fare or something even worse for accidental transgressions.

It might be worth members who live in such areas asking their MPs to raise the issue of penalties during the introductory phases

 

[mattdickinson]

DfT announcement
75 stations in West Midlands
17 in Greater Manchester

Tap-in, tap-out train travel is on track for the West Midlands and Greater Manchester

Over 90 rail stations will be included in the 'pay as you go' pilots.

www.gov.uk

Remains to be seen if passengers get confused travelling from a touch in station to a touch out station, but middle part of their journey isn't covered.

There are now number of isolated schemes, Greater London, Bristol, Cornwall etc. But what happens if travel from one to another, pay as you go maps are going to get really messy with about 500 stations in, but about 2300 outside PAYG areas

GWR have made provision for this in their T&Cs.

If you 'tap in' in one scheme area and 'tap out' in the other, we will charge you the greater of either two incomplete fares for each of the Scheme Areas or a through Journey at Standard Anytime Single fare between your 'tap in' and 'tap out' location. If you are inspected outside the scheme area, conditions stated in h. Inspection apply

 

[Haywain]

GWR have made provision for this in their TOCs.

Which works between Bristol and Cornwall but won't work for either of those to London or the West Midlands. However, as it is a PAYG scheme using a dedicated smartcard the risk is lower than it would be with one using contactless payment cards.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'm surprised how the area for Manchester is solely to the East of Piccadilly, one would think that stations towards Stockport, Manchester Airport and a few stations out West and North of Manchester would be included in the PAYG zone.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Given its branding as "London Stansted Airport" it's not too surprising people think it's in the London area

I did see some tourists get off a train at Oxford Station once and ask for directions to Oxford Circus.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's a strong likelihood of passengers tapping in and travelling beyond the boundary of the scheme. See Stansted Airport tales of woe if you don't believe that this could be a problem!

The issue at Stansted Airport is irrelevant to this- it *should* be within the London contactless area, as it is a major London airport and all the other major London airports are within the area. However, for reasons best known to Greater Anglia, it is not.