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Pay justification

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HH

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Possibly the dumbest question ever asked on these boards. Why should anyone have to justify their rate of pay, unless that is they are a company director?
 
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edwin catflap

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I just want to knwo how a driver can be paid £60+k a year when you look at the roles of other jobs that involve a high level of concentration, carrying passengers, travelling at speed etc. There seems a disparity in my opinion?
 
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Bantamzen

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edwin catflap said:
How do drivers justify their pay rate in comparison to other jobs?
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In comparison to what other jobs? Doctors, surgeons, coffee shop attendants, pizza deliverers????

As you'll no doubt find out in this thread, train drivers don't just push a few levers to drive trains. They spend many months training, learning every facet of every route, technical details of the trains they drive, handling safety related incidents when they are responsible for hundreds, even sometimes thousands of people etc, etc. Anyway, over to those people in the industry. Hope you've brought your tin hat!!
 
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pemma

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DarloRich said:
How do you justify your rate of pay in comparison to other jobs?
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You can give a long list of considerations in response to that!

A few off the top of my head:
1. What level of skills or/and education do you need before you can become a successful applicant for the role e.g. a bachelor's degree isn't enough for a GP.
2. How easy it is for people employed in other roles to cover part or all of your role in an emergency.
3. How easily you can be replaced or not.
4. How it compares to other professions e.g. you could say a train driver is a more specialised role than a bus driver so more pay is justified, while you can say a pilot is a more specialised role than a train driver.
5. The working hours - both the total number of hours worked and the times of shifts.
 
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cuccir

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Pay is not based on inherent difficulty of work, on social value or any other such feature.

Otherwise, we'd be paying nurses and firefighters significantly more than accountants.

I'd suggest that comparing pay across industries is a spurious task.

Pay is much more closely based upon is the supply and competition: accountants typically could go into banking, or industries where they can save rich people a lot of money. So to persuade them to not do that, you need to pay them a lot. Whereas the work of nurses and firefighters, which is arguably more difficult on a day to day basis, isn't really transferable into high paying industries: so you can pay them less.

Edit - Jcollins probably describes it more succinctly than me above.
 
AlterEgo

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edwin catflap said:
I just want to knwo how a driver can be paid £60+k a year when you look at the roles of other jobs that involve a high level of concentration, carrying passengers, travelling at speed etc. There seems a disparity in my opinion?
Click to expand...

You want to know how? Well, because they have a contract. Why should anyone justify their salary?
 
Darandio

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edwin catflap said:
I just want to knwo how a driver can be paid £60+k a year when you look at the roles of other jobs that involve a high level of concentration, carrying passengers, travelling at speed etc. There seems a disparity in my opinion?
Click to expand...

Disgruntled commuter? Bus driver? Or?
 
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Tooktook

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This seems a leading question. Drivers don't need to justify their pay. It is what it is. In my opinion justified due to shift work, route knowledge etc etc

A lot of ex military join the railway and seems to enjoy it.
 
ComUtoR

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Some figures for you :

Current average Driver salary £50,220.79

Lowest : Tyne and Wear Metro - £35,065
Highest : Eurostar - £65,554
# Currently over £60k - 4

Figures taken from http://www.aslef.org.uk/information

I agree, there is a shocking disparity across the driving grade. Metro is clearly the more hardcore and awesome but gets less. <D
 
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Deafdoggie

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Now, don't get me wrong on this, I'd happily settle for £60K a year, and I could (to my mind at least!) justify it, and couldn't we all? But do I think I could be a train driver? I have never done the job so I am possibly talking dribble here, but I guess not! It can be a lonely job. You don't get much interaction from the public or even other staff. You are alone for long periods. You can't nip to the loo when you want. You can get stuck somewhere for hours at a time, You can end up finishing later than planned. You have to be alert and concentrating full on for every second. If you make a mistake it is very public.

That may, or may not, justify £60K a year. But if you paid me that, I still don't think I could do it. I enjoy meeting people, chatting with others, and being able to "switch-off" for moments. If I leave the office at 5:01 in the evening I consider myself very late! granted, I'm not paid anywhere near that money, but then I can do my job and enjoy it.
 
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PeterC

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edwin catflap said:
Neither, an Army Officer
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What would you need to earn in civvy street to get the same pension benefits?

I would want a lot more than £60K to work a train driver's shifts before even thinking about overtime.
 
Bromley boy

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edwin catflap said:
I just want to knwo how a driver can be paid £60+k a year when you look at the roles of other jobs that involve a high level of concentration, carrying passengers, travelling at speed etc. There seems a disparity in my opinion?
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Which jobs are you looking at in comparison?

I would also point out the driver grade isn’t the only railway grade paying at this level as I believe high grade signallers can also command £50-60k.

I doubt many drivers feel a need to “justify” their salaries any more than any other workers.

The driver wage is due to many factors, including the following:

- enormous levels of responsibility - risk of a manslaughter charge and a prison sentence if you don’t do your job properly. Note that as other grades disappear (guards and platform staff), drivers take on their responsibilities;

- tremendous pressure to perform well in the role. These days, if you SPAD, you can’t just call the box and “true up” with the signaller as some of my former BR colleagues remember doing!;

- barriers to entry - not that many people who apply pass the tests and make the cut through training. TOCs want to retain those that do. Training is highly expensive and takes 12-18 month. Platform staff, by contrast, can be trained in a few days;

- privatisation - this has created a competitive market where TOCs compete for staff. Inevitably this drives wages up;

- necessity of the role - the reality is that trains will not move without drivers. There is also a small pool of drivers competent to drive the routes and traction of any particular TOC. Even if qualified drivers are recruited from elsewhere they will take months to train. Inevitably this again means TOCs need to retain their staff;

- strong union representation (although note this also suppresses salaries, as agreed pay deals prevent drivers from being poached by TOCs who are short staffed and negotiating higher salaries on an individual basis).
 
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edwin catflap

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Unfortunately I dont get overtime just a basic salary, however I dont pay for my food (ration pack) or accommodation (tent, trench etc) when in overseas in Afghan etc, my pension is payable at 60 and is 1/3rd. I suppose I justify my wage of £40k by the lack of overtime payments, 1 years training at Sandhurst, responsible for 30 troops, facing the enemy etc etc. Not complaining as its my vocation just looking into a new career due to family etc.
 
Polarbear

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I can think of several ways train drivers justify their salary, including;
  • Working various shift patterns - many at rather anti-social times.
  • Being in sole charge of a dynamic object with a large mass travelling at relatively high speed.
  • Having to "learn the road" - knowing where every signal, crossing & station is, as well as different types of traction in some cases.
  • Learning the skill of driving trains under many different conditions - weather, leaf-fall etc.
  • Possessing maintenance skills.
  • Languages (in the case of Eurostar drivers).
I'm sure I could think of several more.
 
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Dave1987

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edwin catflap said:
I just want to knwo how a driver can be paid £60+k a year when you look at the roles of other jobs that involve a high level of concentration, carrying passengers, travelling at speed etc. There seems a disparity in my opinion?
Click to expand...

I think you have opened a serious can of worms here which I hope you are prepared and happy to accept the responses. When new trainees start their training on day one they are given their training program overview and the penny drops at how much they are required to learn.

Ow and I was talking to a senior driver trainer a while back who told me the caliber of people they are attracting to train driving now because of the wages means TOCs are unlikely to want to cut drivers salaries any time soon.
 
AlterEgo

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edwin catflap said:
Neither, an Army Officer
Click to expand...

edwin catflap said:
Unfortunately I dont get overtime just a basic salary, however I dont pay for my food (ration pack) or accommodation (tent, trench etc) when in overseas in Afghan etc, my pension is payable at 60 and is 1/3rd. I suppose I justify my wage of £40k by the lack of overtime payments, 1 years training at Sandhurst, responsible for 30 troops, facing the enemy etc etc. Not complaining as its my vocation just looking into a new career due to family etc.
Click to expand...

I’ve got a really good nose for people who tell porkies about the Army, especially when they claim to be officers when they’re not.

You have a very unusual username, and it isn’t hard to find out more about you online.
 
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