Pay justification

[Bromley boy]

It's for the rail industry though, despite Bromley Boy thinking those kind of roles didn't exist in the industry.

No, I'm not Mick Cash.

However I am completely at a loss as to what you're talking about, I'm afraid. This thread is discussing why qualified drivers are paid what they're paid for the job that they do.

You're now talking about trainee drivers salaries? Well, trainees at my TOC start in the mid/high high £20ks, does that meet with your approval?

Can you back up your statement about subsidies being required for trainee drivers' salaries, with figures? If not I'll have to conclude it's something you've made up.

In any case, what does any of this have to do with the salary paid to network rail apprentices for a totally different job?

Please can you explain what your point is?

 

[pemma]

I'll ask you again, what do you do and how much are you paid?

I've not had a fixed permanent role since last year, partly due to market uncertainty following the Brexit vote.

And what qualifies you to know what an appropriate wage for a train driver is?

I've given factors that should be considered when considering what is an appropriate salary. It's not just simply a case of the more training you've been given the bigger your pay packet should be as you keep suggesting.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I've not had a fixed permanent role since last year, partly due to market uncertainty following the Brexit vote

Keep an eye out for Trainee Train Drivers roles on TOC websites then, I've heard the money is good

 

[pemma]

No, I'm not Mick Cash.
Can you back up your statement about subsidies being required for trainee drivers' salaries, with figures? If not I'll have to conclude it's something you've made up.

If Northern were a commercial business how would they be affording to pay all those extra trainee drivers and guards they've recently taken on, when without a government subsidy they'd be loss making?

 

[pemma]

Keep an eye out for Trainee Train Drivers roles on TOC websites then, I've heard the money is good

If I was to apply for a railway role it wouldn't be one working on a train or at a station, even if they pay more.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Keep an eye out for Trainee Train Drivers roles on TOC websites then, I've heard the money is good

 

[dk1]

If Northern were a commercial business how would they be affording to pay all those extra trainee drivers and guards they've recently taken on, when without a government subsidy they'd be loss making?

Northern isn't a commercial business & never will be. If they don't pay the rate they don't get the drivers simple as. Much of their area is also ripe for poaching. It's just how it is.

 

[Loop & Link]

I've not had a fixed permanent role since last year, partly due to market uncertainty following the Brexit vote.



I've given factors that should be considered when considering what is an appropriate salary. It's not just simply a case of the more training you've been given the bigger your pay packet should be as you keep suggesting.

Keep an eye out for Trainee Train Drivers roles on TOC websites then, I've heard the money is good

Come and join us then @jcollins - I’ve seen you posting on these forums (and others) for years, trying to be an expert on everything about the railway and how it operates, being anti-Union as well.

Put your money were your mouth is. Get on the vacancies for your local TOC, you obviously have some railway knowledge which will help, so come aboard and see what we actually do, see if the salaries are justifiable! We’re all a great bunch.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure Network Rail's apprentices would think that is a reasonable offer. They get £182 a week, plus a £1265 bonus on completion: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/careers/apprenticeships/

It is a residential course. All costs are met by the employer.

 

[Moonshot]

How do drivers justify their pay rate in comparison to other jobs?

Drivers dont have to justify their pay rates at all......todays current salaries are the results of many years of ASLEF negotiating with the private sector, which generally they have more success in than negotiating with the old public sector in the days of BR. Drivers are getting paid what they are worth according to the business plan of said private sector companies.

 

[ComUtoR]

It's not just simply a case of the more training you've been given the bigger your pay packet should be as you keep suggesting.

Isn't that what you have suggested ?

Degree = Higher Salary. A degree is training/qualification and you say that this would justify a higher wage to attract any potential employee. What seems to matter to you is who paid for it.

My train driving license is a qualification and I've undergone the appropriate training and gained the appropriate skills. Why should't I then be allowed a higher wage purely because I didn't pay for it.

 

[Llanigraham]

No I didn't! I said a £25,000 salary would be attractive to those outside the industry but "not so much it will prevent the TOC making a profit." I didn't say what level would prevent a TOC making a profit.

Your statement certainly implies that you consider £25k to be adequate.
As you seem to be an expert in this field, what would the level be to prevent a profit?

However, I did TOCs would struggle to pay trainee drivers proper salaries (opposed to apprenticeship ones) without government subsides. (The Network Rail link I provided gives an idea of what an apprenticeship scheme would be like for British Rail if they still existed.)

The NR apprentice scheme is not comparable to a train drivers salary, and to compare the two is fatuous.

You've somehow interpreted that as meaning TOCs don't make a profit. Are you actually Mick Cash?

Stupid comment!

And you have been repeatedly asked what your job and salary are? How about actually answering the question?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If I was to apply for a railway role it wouldn't be one working on a train or at a station, even if they pay more.

Nothing like bigging yourself up is there. Just because you have a degree doesn't entitle you to begrudge those who don't have one of getting good money, which seems to be a common trait of those who do.

I've worked for ~99.5% on the railway network at various locations and I've had to work hard to get to the driving position I hold today and as I've said previously, I know of those who've applied to be a driver and failed, I also know that a considerable number who've joined the railway for managerial roles and soon found themselves displaced or out of the door because of corporate reshuffles or poor performance.

I don't know where you get the notion that if you have a degree, it gives you the right to medium - high end managerial positions? You don't seem to have any people skills, you lack any sort of tact and diplomacy and squeal like a pig if something un "PC" comes your way.

If you want to work on the railway, try starting at the bottom & working your way up the ladder, getting your people skills together, you may just garner some respect from those who've worked long & hard over decades to get where they are today.

Remember: Trust & Respect are earned, Not bestowed.

 

[Mintona]

I could easily see that train drivers could push for £150k or more before anything serious would be done.

I’d better dig out that yacht brochure again.

 

[Mintona]

I don’t know why some of you bite every time. Obvious troll thread is obvious, surely?

We all know there are a few posters on here with a chip on their shoulder about railway staff’s salaries. You’ll never convince them otherwise, so I don’t really get the point of trying.

 

[Bromley boy]

I've not had a fixed permanent role since last year, partly due to market uncertainty following the Brexit vote.



I've given factors that should be considered when considering what is an appropriate salary. It's not just simply a case of the more training you've been given the bigger your pay packet should be as you keep suggesting.

Rubbish, If you read through my posts I've said nothing of the sort. I've said it's one factor. You've repeatedly failed to address the points I raised previously and seem to be on here to have rant which you can't justify or back up with figures, when probed .

Sorry to hear you're struggling to find a role (I genuinely mean that, I've been there myself) but I must say I find it ironic being told that I'm overpaid and hearing moans about government subsidies for TOCs from someone who A. Has never done my job and B. is currently not even working themselves.

I'm afraid this, once again, reveals a certain chip on your shoulder.

 

[sefton]

Drivers are getting paid what they are worth according to the business plan of said private sector companies.

No, they are being paid what they can get away with from their 'blackmail' position due to the gateway to entry and their replacement, subject to how far they can push the government before it decides 'enough is enough'.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

No, they are being paid what they can get away with from their 'blackmail' position due to the gateway to entry and their replacement, subject to how far they can push the government before it decides 'enough is enough'.

Green eyed monster...

 

[Moonshot]

No, they are being paid what they can get away with from their 'blackmail' position due to the gateway to entry and their replacement, subject to how far they can push the government before it decides 'enough is enough'.

Sorry.....just remind me when was the last time ASLEF negotiated with the public sector direct ?

 

[Moonshot]

Green eyed monster...

Indeed ...clearly there are no shortage of takers either ......its one of the few roles where the average man ( or inceasingly woman ) can apply , with the only barriers to entry being the ability to fail a stiff entrance test , or fail a medical. New drivers over the age of 50 are not uncommon either

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Indeed ...clearly there are no shortage of takers either ......its one of the few roles where the average man ( or inceasingly woman ) can apply , with the only barriers to entry being the ability to fail a stiff entrance test , or fail a medical. New drivers over the age of 50 are not uncommon either

Until recently we had one driver still working at 67. All I want to do is retire at 60 if Brass II allows it, otherwise 62, so I can enjoy my twilight years! I've had enough of doing suburban work now and as I get older I find that I hate really early turns, I like the mid morning ones or social hours shifts of which there aren't that many.

 

[ComUtoR]

its one of the few roles where the average man ( or inceasingly woman ) can apply , with the only barriers to entry being the ability to fail a stiff entrance test , or fail a medical. New drivers over the age of 50 are not uncommon either

Exactly. How can this be anything other than a good thing. I'm always stunned on threads like this. Some people just... Well just :/

 

[Moonshot]

Until recently we had one driver still working at 67. All I want to do is retire at 60 if Brass II allows it, otherwise 62, so I can enjoy my twilight years! I've had enough of doing suburban work now and as I get older I find that I hate really early turns, I like the mid morning ones or social hours shifts of which there aren't that many.

Oddly enough we were having that very conversation this morning in our mess room. One of the big plusses of having a works pension is that the employee can pretty much pick his or her own retirement date ....unlike the state pension of course. I personally wont miss the 3.30 am starts but I m used to them for now

 

[Llanigraham]

No, they are being paid what they can get away with from their 'blackmail' position due to the gateway to entry and their replacement, subject to how far they can push the government before it decides 'enough is enough'.

I'm not even a driver and I know that comment is total and complete utter rubbish!
The chip is getting bigger!!

 

[pemma]

Nothing like bigging yourself up is there. Just because you have a degree doesn't entitle you to begrudge those who don't have one of getting good money, which seems to be a common trait of those who do.

I've worked for ~99.5% on the railway network at various locations and I've had to work hard to get to the driving position I hold today and as I've said previously, I know of those who've applied to be a driver and failed, I also know that a considerable number who've joined the railway for managerial roles and soon found themselves displaced or out of the door because of corporate reshuffles or poor performance.

I don't know where you get the notion that if you have a degree, it gives you the right to medium - high end managerial positions? You don't seem to have any people skills, you lack any sort of tact and diplomacy and squeal like a pig if something un "PC" comes your way.

If you want to work on the railway, try starting at the bottom & working your way up the ladder, getting your people skills together, you may just garner some respect from those who've worked long & hard over decades to get where they are today.

Remember: Trust & Respect are earned, Not bestowed.

My skills and abilities would suit a planning or a research role far more than the roles you'd think of first when you think of the railways. I didn't say anything about going for a managerial role!

You can't judge someone's skills from their posts on here! I've been told numerous times that posts I put on the Internet don't sound like they've come from me. If I'm talking to someone I usually talk in a polite tone which doesn't come across in forum posts.

 

[Llanigraham]

Indeed ...clearly there are no shortage of takers either ......its one of the few roles where the average man ( or inceasingly woman ) can apply , with the only barriers to entry being the ability to fail a stiff entrance test , or fail a medical. New drivers over the age of 50 are not uncommon either

Cough!!
Try joining the signalling ranks; the exams are equally difficult.

 

[coxxy]

If Northern were a commercial business how would they be affording to pay all those extra trainee drivers and guards they've recently taken on, when without a government subsidy they'd be loss making?

Surely on the flip side to that though is if they didn't receive the subsidy's then they wouldn't be running as many services and the extra drivers/guards/station staff wouldn't be needed.

Agreed it may seem excessive the amount of subsidies they receive but without them what commercial business would continue to maintain and provide services (even if limited) to stations such as Ardwick?

It's all a massive catch 22 and in no way correlates with drivers/guards/dispatchers/controllers/cleaners salary.

 

[Bromley boy]

Indeed ...clearly there are no shortage of takers either ......its one of the few roles where the average man ( or inceasingly woman ) can apply , with the only barriers to entry being the ability to fail a stiff entrance test , or fail a medical. New drivers over the age of 50 are not uncommon either

True although, however many people apply, its not an easy job to get. It's not an easy job to do and it's certainly not an easy job to keep for the long term.

 

[Moonshot]

Surely on the flip side to that though is if they didn't receive the subsidy's then they wouldn't be running as many services and the extra drivers/guards/station staff wouldn't be needed.

Agreed it may seem excessive the amount of subsidies they receive but without them what commercial business would continue to maintain and provide services (even if limited) to stations such as Ardwick?

It's all a massive catch 22 and in no way correlates with drivers/guards/dispatchers/controllers/cleaners salary.

Subsidies are politically motivated.....the wider economic benefits of subsidising the very widespread Northern network are probably impossible to monetise exactly

 

[jayah]

This seems a leading question. Drivers don't need to justify their pay. It is what it is. In my opinion justified due to shift work, route knowledge etc etc

A lot of ex military join the railway and seems to enjoy it.

I have never seen a politician, university Chancellor, council leader or company director justify what they are paid.

The simply claim:
1) Others in comparable occupations are paid as much and more.
2) Market forces.