Paying for a Journey AFTER Travelling

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Mutant Lemming

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-I was wondering what one would do if in this hypothetical but quite possible situation.

-Travelling from an unstaffed station without a ticket machine
- on a short journey where the guard is too pre-occupied with the train operational side to sell tickets
- with a tight connection on to a longer distance last train with insufficient time to buy a ticket at the interchange station
- on to a train which is comprised of two meridian sets one of which has no ticket check
- alighting at a station with no staff in attendance and only a short time before the last bus home.

How, and to who, would an honest traveller go about paying for the journey they made bearing in mind there are two different train companies involved?
 
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Urban Gateline

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If there is a TVM at the final destination, a reverse single could be purchased to where this hypothetical traveller came from (single fares are often the same in both directions but sometimes differ). This ticket should then be destroyed to ensure it isn't used again.

Or if the person wants a return ticket then buy that from the TVM to cover both legs of the journey, it gets a bit more difficult if a period return is wanted as that wouldn't be valid the next day if issued the other way round!

If there is no TVM and no ticket office then the fare will go unpaid unless the person is willing to visit a nearby manned station to pay for the journey they made in retrospect (unlikely as most people aren't that honest nowadays!) or if making a return journey they could pay for the return ticket then.

On both trains mentioned it may have been possible to find the Guard and ask for a ticket, although as mentioned on other threads this is not an obligation!
 

island

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One could always send one of the TOCs a cheque.

Most passengers in this scenario would simply call it their lucky day.
 

yorkie

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One could always send one of the TOCs a cheque.
How about a request for an invoice?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
- with a tight connection on to a longer distance last train with insufficient time to buy a ticket at the interchange station
Why is last in bold? In fact, why is last in there at all?

If you have a connection with insufficient time to buy a ticket, this is not considered an "opportunity".
- alighting at a station with no staff in attendance and only a short time before the last bus home.
Do you mean "with no facility to buy the correct ticket"?

Is this a question about whether you can - or are obliged to - buy a 'reverse' ticket from a TVM*, or a station with no facilities at all?

(* I understand some people are going to be using some real example journeys to enquire about that)
 

jopsuk

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One could always send one of the TOCs a cheque.

Most passengers in this scenario would simply call it their lucky day.
I know I have in the past... no working machine at origin, no ticket check on train, open barriers at destination, no ticket windows open- though even if they had been, I'll be honest, I wouldn't have tried to pay. It would have been such an odd conversation to have anyway.
 

Urban Gateline

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I know I have in the past... no working machine at origin, no ticket check on train, open barriers at destination, no ticket windows open- though even if they had been, I'll be honest, I wouldn't have tried to pay. It would have been such an odd conversation to have anyway.
Sorry but I disagree with you there. You had used a service, so you pay for it. If there is any opportunity such as an open ticket window or a machine and you fail to pay for the journey you made then that makes you dishonest.
 

JoeGJ1984

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What if one ends up at their destination (or interchange station with sufficient connection time to buy tickets) INSIDE barriers - is there always a window/ticket office inside the barriers? (At Shrewsbury there seems to be none and yet Shrewsbury has a few unstaffed stations nearby). Would the barrier staff sell you a ticket if you ended up inside barriers without a ticket and no way to buy a ticket inside the barriers?
 

Urban Gateline

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Would the barrier staff sell you a ticket if you ended up inside barriers without a ticket and no way to buy a ticket inside the barriers?
Yes, if you come from an unmanned station with no ticket issuing facilities then you are entitled to buy the ticket you wanted at the next possible opportunity, so I can't see any reason why the barrier staff there wouldn't sell the ticket as long as you explain where you came from and that there wasn't the relevant ticket issuing facility there!

Some barrier staff (like myself) don't have machines so you may be refered to the ticket office outside the barriers anyway so you would be let out in that case.
 

yorkie

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What if one ends up at their destination (or interchange station with sufficient connection time to buy tickets) INSIDE barriers - is there always a window/ticket office inside the barriers? (At Shrewsbury there seems to be none and yet Shrewsbury has a few unstaffed stations nearby). Would the barrier staff sell you a ticket if you ended up inside barriers without a ticket and no way to buy a ticket inside the barriers?
I'm sure they would!

They'd sell you a ticket from an Avantix machine (if they have one) or they would let you through to use a ticket machine/ticket office, as appropriate. What other outcome did you have in mind?
 

dvboy

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I'm sure they would!

They'd sell you a ticket from an Avantix machine (if they have one) or they would let you through to use a ticket machine/ticket office, as appropriate. What other outcome did you have in mind?
At Birmingham New Street they will direct you to men with Avantix machines next to the Information desk. Some stations have an Excess fares window inside the gateline (Lincoln is one I can think of).
 

Urban Gateline

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At Birmingham New Street they will direct you to men with Avantix machines next to the Information desk. Some stations have an Excess fares window inside the gateline (Lincoln is one I can think of).
Quite many LU and LO stations have such a window inside the barrier line too, I guess it's only used when there is no RPI present!
 

tony_mac

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It would have been such an odd conversation to have anyway.
I've bought a ticket at my destination a few times - I just ask for a return from my origin, and they sell it to me.
There has never been any obvious reaction that suggests it's odd.
 

yorkie

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I don't think it's odd, and the queues at places like Aberdeen, Leeds and Manchester Victoria can be immense! I was shocked at the queue size at around 2150 at Aberdeen on a Saturday night (and they'd have to be getting singles; I guess people were going clubbing from places like Dyce and would have had to get a taxi back, or another single the next morning!)
 

dvboy

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I don't think it's odd, and the queues at places like Aberdeen, Leeds and Manchester Victoria can be immense! I was shocked at the queue size at around 2150 at Aberdeen on a Saturday night (and they'd have to be getting singles; I guess people were going clubbing from places like Dyce and would have had to get a taxi back, or another single the next morning!)
But are these people who wouldn't be able to get out of the station otherwise? I bet if there was no barrier they wouldn't bother.
 

Mutant Lemming

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On both trains mentioned it may have been possible to find the Guard and ask for a ticket, although as mentioned on other threads this is not an obligation!
Guard on train one is pre-occupied with a door fault requiring him to push it clsoed.

Second train is composed of two meridian sets one half of which has no guard and train is non-stop from boarding station to alighting point.

The thing is the harder you make it for people to actually pay then the less likely it is they will.
I would imagine if you contacted one of the train companies and told them you wanted to pay for a journey already undertaken they would end up charging you the most expensive fare for the journey made - which is going to make it even less likely that people would pay.
 

cuccir

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Frankly, I wouldn't pay. I think the vast majority of people wouldn't. The same would apply for any shop or service that fails to get payment - I'm not going to delay or inconvenience myself in order to part with money!
 

Urban Gateline

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I agree that in this scenario, the railway isn't really helping itself, it is unfair to put so much pressure on the passenger to pay when there are no facilities to do so!

I guess even if all TOC's TVM's issues tickets from any station (like some Southern TVM's) then it may help, however I still believe most people will not pay up if the Guard does not check tickets and there are no barriers at destination, regardless of a ticket office being open!
 

cuccir

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I guess even if all TOC's TVM's issues tickets from any station (like some Southern TVM's) then it may help, however I still believe most people will not pay up if the Guard does not check tickets and there are no barriers at destination, regardless of a ticket office being open!
Well I think if this were the case then that would change things, and there would be adequate facilities. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that if you're travelling between two rural stations ten minutes apart which are unstaffed, there's will be regular occasions that there is no opportunity to buy a ticket, and this would only be solved with TVMs being much more widespread, which obviously has associated costs
 

island

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I agree that in this scenario, the railway isn't really helping itself, it is unfair to put so much pressure on the passenger to pay when there are no facilities to do so!

I guess even if all TOC's TVM's issues tickets from any station (like some Southern TVM's) then it may help, however I still believe most people will not pay up if the Guard does not check tickets and there are no barriers at destination, regardless of a ticket office being open!
What if the reverse fare is different and there's only a TVM available at your destination?

What if you've part-paid for a permit to travel and there's only a TVM available at your destination?
 

ian13

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I know I have in the past... no working machine at origin, no ticket check on train, open barriers at destination, no ticket windows open- though even if they had been, I'll be honest, I wouldn't have tried to pay. It would have been such an odd conversation to have anyway.
It's not really an odd conversation, "single from X to here, journey just made" doesn't bat an eyelid. If there are facilities, even if you've made the journey, not bothering to pay is clearly an offence - and an RPI, if they saw you leaving, could issue you a UPF notice (or take evidence).

You wouldn't leave a taxi without paying at your destination, just because the doors were unlocked, would you?
 

Urban Gateline

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What if the reverse fare is different and there's only a TVM available at your destination?

What if you've part-paid for a permit to travel and there's only a TVM available at your destination?
I knew some smart arse would complicate the hypothetical situation! :D

I would say that if the reverse fare is LESS than the outward fare then its reasonable to just purchase the reverse fare and call it quits, at least an attempt has then been made to pay the fare for the journey.

PTT is slightly more difficult as there would be no proper way to change it for a ticket, in an ideal world a TVM should be able to read the magnetic strip on the PTT voucher and then use it as part payment for a fare.

However since this isn't possible, and it's too complex to expect a passenger to just buy a ticket to another destination of the difference in fare, I would say just let it go as the person has made some effort to pay but the shortfalls are the problem of the railway in that case!
 

Mutant Lemming

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You wouldn't leave a taxi without paying at your destination, just because the doors were unlocked, would you?
The comparison would be more like the doors were unlocked and the driver had disappeared. It is a case of not having the opportunity to pay.
 

jopsuk

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It's not really an odd conversation, "single from X to here, journey just made" doesn't bat an eyelid. If there are facilities, even if you've made the journey, not bothering to pay is clearly an offence - and an RPI, if they saw you leaving, could issue you a UPF notice (or take evidence).

You wouldn't leave a taxi without paying at your destination, just because the doors were unlocked, would you?
I'd assume that most "single from X to here" conversations have the nearest possible origin as "X"... and only happen when there's a manned gateline/manual ticket checks. The only time I've done it though the ticket windows were shut, it was late evening, no revenue protection on the (open) gateline. I've never actively tried to evade paying my way, but if the railway doesn't try to take my money, it won't get it. There's certainly no chance of me going out of my way to send a cheque...
 

island

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I've never actively tried to evade paying my way, but if the railway doesn't try to take my money, it won't get it. There's certainly no chance of me going out of my way to send a cheque...
Ditto. Especially as I did it once with SWT and got such an interrogation from the clerk that I missed my onward train.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Most people like the idea of 'getting something for nothing' so as pointed out it is highly unlikely that many people would actually pay a fare retrospectively - particularly as the companies don't make it easy to do so.

In the long term unrecorded journies would make the service seem unused and unviable leading to it's possible withdrawal.
A fate which befell the late night Kings Cross -WGC services a few years back.
 

34D

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If there is a TVM at the final destination, a reverse single could be purchased to where this hypothetical traveller came from (single fares are often the same in both directions but sometimes differ). This ticket should then be destroyed to ensure it isn't used again.
Can I respectfully suggest that this is completely incorrect advice, and that people should NOT attempt to do this.

Unless of course a TOC sends such an instruction to someone who enquires over this scenario.

Such a ticket is NOT a valid ticket for the journey just made. Consider this scenario.

Train arrives on platform (this platform has a TVM). Passenger buys your 'wrong' ticket. Passenger then crosses over to the exit where there is an RPI block. Shows ticket. "This isn't valid for the service you have just alighted from sir."

In fact, it is more serious (in my personal view). Instead of having not had an opportunity to buy a ticket, you are now using a ticket fraudulently. Remember that RPIs won't thing you just bought a ticket to cover the journey you've just made, they'll think you bought a ticket to go back later.

Where you (and any other poster) are putting across something that is your opinion (as opposed to something that is undisputedly fact) please could you make this clear - words like "I think" or "in my opinon" are all that are needed.
 

jopsuk

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Most people like the idea of 'getting something for nothing' so as pointed out it is highly unlikely that many people would actually pay a fare retrospectively - particularly as the companies don't make it easy to do so.

In the long term unrecorded journies would make the service seem unused and unviable leading to it's possible withdrawal.
A fate which befell the late night Kings Cross -WGC services a few years back.
Having no active revenue protection (be it guards, roving RPIs or gatelines- or combinations thereof) will, I'm sorry to say, always lead to routine fare evasion. It is of course handy if you want rid of a service... *dons conspiracy theorist tinfoil helmet*
 
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