Payment overdue reminder letters but fine already paid

[proofread100@v]

My daughter travelled on 9th March with Govia Thameslink, from Kentish Town to Luton. She had just finished a night shift and the ticket office in K Town wasn't yet open and the ticket machine wasn't working properly.
She alighted at Luton and approached the station staff, telling them that she had been unable to purchase a ticket and asking to buy one at the end of the journey.

They refused and issued her with a fine of £37 which she paid then and there (she was exhausted after a 12 hour shift in A&E and just paid up rather than argue) and they issued her with a receipt.

She received a letter of reminder for overdue payment about a week later. On the back it states that if you have recently paid, then you may ignore the letter.

She has now received a further letter, which has increased to £77, There is no number to call except an automated payment line.

What should be the next course of action please?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Nottingham59]

Hello and welcome to the forum. The first question is, does she still have the receipt that she was given?

 

[proofread100@v]

I just had a look at it and unfortunately it isn't readable. The guy's machine crashed (her words) as he issued it, but he showed her on a screen that it had gone through ok. She was in tears (stressful night) and just took the receipt and left without looking at it.
Thankfully her bank account shows the payment of £37 was taken so she has proof of payment.

And thank you for your welcome Nottingham59.

 

[Nottingham59]

Even if it's not readable, do you think you could take a picture of it and post it here? Others may be able to glean some useful information from it. Cover up any personal details, if any are legible.

Also, what exactly does her statement say about where the £37 was paid to? Does it quote a transaction number for instance?

 

[proofread100@v]

Will try again tomorrow as my phone isn't letting me upload for some reason.
All that is just about legible is at the bottom.

'Debited card holder with the total amount.
Please retain for your records. CARDHOLDER COPY'

Nothing else readable above it. Just inky stripes. Amount isn't readable.

She does have the original penalty notice which was issued. States the amount of £37 but that came out of the machine, was given to her and she paid. So it can't act as a receipt.

 

[Nottingham59]

I understand. Thank you. Other people who understand the details of the Penalty Fare system better than I do will be along soon, no doubt, who will be able to advise you on how your daughter could get all this sorted out.

 

[furlong]

9th March? Was the notice itself complete and readable? Did the notice explain how to appeal (including the time limit)? Even at this late stage it's worth attempting to get it refunded if the situation was truly as described - in what way was the ticket machine not working properly and is that something the machine's data logs are likely to confirm?

 

[proofread100@v]

Thanks Furlong.
I'm not sure in what way the ticket machine wasn't working. She was exhausted and when it didn't work, and she was going to miss the train, she just figured she would get on the train and pay at the other end.
At this stage we just want them to acknowledge that the fine has been paid, and stop sending letters.
The actual penalty charge notice printed out no problem. Clear and intact. It was the little card receipt (like a train ticket) that didn't print properly.
Even though she is honest, she is now wishing that she had just walked through the open barriers as others were doing, rather than approaching staff.
Thank goodness she didn't pay in cash.

Is it worth going back to the station in person and asking why she is being chased for payment? I know when I got a ticket for supposedly parking in Asda all day (had been before and after work), they were able to get on their system and cancel it in store.

 

[221129]

Is it worth going back to the station in person and asking why she is being chased for payment?

No. They have no control or say on the matter now.

 

[proofread100@v]

Figured that that would be the case.

Any idea why she is getting these letters even though the fine was paid on the spot?
Should she write to Govia Thamselink?

 

[Western Sunset]

If the events described by the OP are correct, couldn't she appeal against any penalty charge?

 

[Watershed]

If the events described by the OP are correct, couldn't she appeal against any penalty charge?

It would need to be an 'out of time' appeal at this point if she wished to go through the conventional appeals channels.

Of course, that does not prevent her from instigating legal proceedings to reclaim the cost of the Penalty Fare. A Penalty Fare is not automatically deemed valid just because it hasn't been appealed.

 

[proofread100@v]

The problem is that she was so exhausted after her shift, that it could well be that if she had tried the machine a couple more times that it may have worked. But she didn't.
The fine of £37 is not really the issue now. It was paid and done and dusted as far as she was concerned.
It is the subsequent reminder letters that are now the concern.

Surely their system should show that the fine was paid on the day. Her bank account certainly does show this.

Do we just write and tell them?

 

[Watershed]

The problem is that she was so exhausted after her shift, that it could well be that if she had tried the machine a couple more times that it may have worked. But she didn't.
The fine of £37 is not really the issue now. It was paid and done and dusted as far as she was concerned.
It is the subsequent reminder letters that are now the concern.

Surely their system should show that the fine was paid on the day. Her bank account certainly does show this.

Do we just write and tell them?

It is probably just that, at some stage in the process, this Penalty Fare has been registered in their systems as 'issued', but the payment was not registered or not connected to it.

I would certainly write to them to tell them that the Penalty Fare has been paid, enclosing evidence (screenshot/scan of bank account statement with account holder name, transaction description, date and amount).

I would stress that even though your daughter may consider the matter 'done and dusted' for now, it may still be worth taking the initial issuance of the Penalty Fare up.

Having an unappealed Penalty Fare "on your record" is liable to cause her problems if she ever comes into a similar situation in future - it might be taken by revenue staff to indicate that she is a "regular" fare evader, leading to the matter being considered for prosecution rather than a Penalty Fare.

 

[proofread100@v]

Something to bear in mind for the future. Thank you. But if she was in the wrong, as in, can't prove that the machine was 100% incapable of giving a ticket, where would be the benefit to appealing? And she would be out of time now as I'm pretty sure the ticket said 28 days.

Will have to find out how to print a bank statement. The app won't allow screenshots. I'm sure we will find a way.

 

[Watershed]

Something to bear in mind for the future. Thank you. But if she was in the wrong, as in, can't prove that the machine was 100% incapable of giving a ticket, where would be the benefit to appealing? And she would be out of time now as I'm pretty sure the ticket said 28 days.

Will have to find out how to print a bank statement. The app won't allow screenshots. I'm sure we will find a way.

Whilst it is obviously helpful if you have evidence that the ticket machine was not working (e.g. a message stating it is "out of order"), ultimately the TOC holds records which should detail whether or not ticket machines were working.

Now, these records are not perfect - they usually rely on the ticket machines self-reporting any faults and clearly there will be some kinds of faults that won't be detected. But it is certainly worth a shot.

You have the right to have an appeal determined by an independent Appeals Body if you appeal within 21 days, if you leave it longer than this then it becomes at the discretion of the Appeals Body as to whether they hear your appeal. However, as stated, that is not the end of the road if you want to take it up.

 

[30907]

Something to bear in mind for the future. Thank you. But if she was in the wrong, as in, can't prove that the machine was 100% incapable of giving a ticket, where would be the benefit to appealing?

The priority is to get GTR to accept that the penalty fare was paid.

If your daughter can explain in what way the machine "wasn't working properly" (wouldn't offer the right ticket, accept her card...) it might be worth pursuing even though the appeal date has passed, but she/you would need to be persistent.

 

[robbeech]

From what I can gather (and apologies if i've misunderstood) Nobody other than the yourselves and staff member she saw at Luton has any clue about the fault with the ticket machine.
For this reason, it will not have been taken into account by anyone other than the member of staff who made the decision to ignore this and unlawfully issue it anyway.

In your contact you will need to mention both that the ticket machine was not working, and that it WAS pointed out to the member of staff who issued the penalty fare but they refused to acknowledge it. That way, whoever is dealing with it will be able to take that into account when dealing with the matter. It's possible (sadly, quite likely) that they too will ignore this as there is no way to regulate it.

My advice moving forwards is to write to them and include the following details.

* This has already been paid.
* You have confirmed this with the bank (no need to send a statement copy initially)

You could leave it at that and this matter should be cleared up very quickly, or if you want (I understand why it might not seem worth it so it is entirely your decision) you could also include

* The machine was broken
* It was mentioned to the staff member who failed to acknowledge this.
* The regulations say that in this situation the penalty fare is not due
* You believe that a refund is due for the difference between the penalty fare price paid and the price of the appropriate ticket price for the journey made (You can find and calculate this if you wish).


Be prepared for them to ask you :

* To prove the machine was broken (it would never legally be your responsibility to do this but when the railway says jump etc)
* How the passenger got through the barriers at Kentish town
* To prove the penalty fare has been paid (this is where you may wish to send some proof if you hadn't already)

What is important to remember is that, despite what some may think, and despite how appalling many operators are at handling these types of things, falling foul of the rules and even laws on a daily basis, they aren't doing this to try it on. It will be a system issue or incompetence or a system issue caused by incompetence. So i'm sure that at the VERY least, there will be no requirement to pay anything extra and all being well, you can get a partial refund for the initial incorrectly issued PF. You may wish to consider separating your contact so that you deal with the immediate issue first and then follow it up with the incorrect issue afterwards.

 

[proofread100@v]

That sounds like a really good plan Robbeech. I think we will do exactly as you say. Will report back and let you know how we get on.

Oh, and thank you to the very helpful MSE forum regular who told me to come here for help.

 

[KeithP]

Oh, and thank you to the very helpful MSE forum regular who told me to come here for help.

You're welcome.

 

[su31]

For what it's worth, Kentish Town is operated by London Underground. It hasn't had a ticket office since 2015. The ticket machines are in the adjoining Underground station and you have to either pass through the Underground barriers to enter the railway. (The Underground station entrance opens at around 05:30)
Prior to 05:30, access to the Thameslink station is via the Out of Hours gate directly to the bridge linking to the platforms, then onto the train. Due to post Covid-19 customer flows, the Out of Hours gate is also open during peak times.

 

[robbeech]

I did wonder if the gate was being utilised more at the moment.

 

[proofread100@v]

Just a wee update.
We wrote to Govia Thameslink and eventually they wrote back to say there was nothing they could do and to write to the penalty services people, which we duly did.
On Saturday we received a letter back from them saying it was nothing to do with them and was now in the hands of the prosecution section and to write to them.
We have now written to them and are awaiting a reply.
Going around in circles. We keep getting in yhe replies that we didn't appeal in time. They all seem to be ignoring the bit about us not appealing as the fine was paid on the day it was issued.
We have put some detail in the letters about why the ticket wasn't purchased in the first place, but as advised here, didn't want to get bogged down in that for now, and just want them to halt this procedure towarda prosecution.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just as a little bit of reassurance, if the worst comes to the worst and this ends up in court and your daughter loses
- she will not go to prison
- she is unlikely to lose her job

Not going to prison - that's because sentencing guidelines effectively bar prison as a sanction for ticketing offences: essentially, prison would only be an option if this was part of a long pattern of offending or the ticketing offence was linked to other offences likely to lead to prison. There's nothing here that suggests that is the case.
Not losing her job - while we don't know what your daughter does for a living, it's worth looking at the guidance given on the Nursing and Midwifery Council's website at https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/

If the criminal offending was directly linked to the nurse, midwife or nursing associate’s professional practice, it’s very likely this would be serious enough to affect their fitness to practise.

(...)

If the criminal offending took place in the nurse, midwife or nursing associate’s private life, and there’s no clear risk to patients or members of the public, then it is unlikely that we’ll need to take regulatory action to uphold confidence in nurses, midwives or nursing associates, or professional standards.

I suspect (but haven't checked) that the guidance for doctors and anyone else who might be working 12-hour shifts in A&E is similar.

So while it's clearly a good thing to avoid this ending up in court, if it does so then that won't be calamitous.

 

[robbeech]

Just as a little bit of reassurance, if the worst comes to the worst and this ends up in court and your daughter loses
- she will not go to prison
- she is unlikely to lose her job

Not going to prison - that's because sentencing guidelines effectively bar prison as a sanction for ticketing offences: essentially, prison would only be an option if this was part of a long pattern of offending or the ticketing offence was linked to other offences likely to lead to prison. There's nothing here that suggests that the case.
Not losing her job - while we don't know what your daughter does for a living, it's worth looking at the guidance given on the Nursing and Midwifery Council's website at https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/


I suspect (but haven't checked) that the guidance for doctors and anyone else who might be working 12-hour shifts in A&E is similar.

So while it's clearly a good thing to avoid this ending up in court, if it does so then that won't be calamitous.

Loses what in court?
A case to say the payment is overdue when the payment has been made and the bank account confirms this?

GTR are a mere dribble of a company compared to the major high street banks, so who are they going to fight with?

With evidence of the full penalty fare WHICH WAS NOT DUE but paid regardless, if this went to court and the passenger lost it would be the ultimate proof of the anti passenger attitude at the heart of the railway.m

Edit to add for clarity @Fawkes Cat I understand what you’re saying and agree, a perfectly valid point that is crucial to put the passenger’s mind at ease but the operator should absolutely hang their heads in shame here.

 

[njr001]

Given how this has gone round in circles the OP may like to consider contacting Patrick Verwer CEO [email protected]

 

[Haywain]

Given how this has gone round in circles the OP may like to consider contacting Patrick Verwer CEO [email protected]

Although waiting for a response to the latest letter may be appropriate.

 

[proofread100@v]

Thank you all. We will await a reply to the latest letter.
As for going to court, I wouldn't be concerned that she would lose as we have the proof that the fine was paid immediately and it would be the company who would look ridiculous. But obviously that is a stress that we would rather avoid.
Thanks for the details of the CEO should we need it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all. We will await a reply to the latest letter.
As for going to court, I wouldn't be concerned that she would lose as we have the proof that the fine was paid immediately and it would be the company who would look ridiculous. But obviously that is a stress that we would rather avoid.
Thanks for the details of the CEO should we need it.

For what it's worth, in a slightly unusual matter that needed resolution I wrote to the same Thameslink CEO (think I sent paper letter not e-mail as it happens) and a member of their staff intervened to resolve the matter satisfactorily, for which I was most grateful. So if you find yourself going round in circles it may be a worthwhile action to take in this case, depending on outcome of latest letter, as you say.
Good luck with this.

 

[proofread100@v]

Success!
Got an email from the correct people in the end apologising for the threats of prosecution as they could see clearly that the fine had been paid on the day. They said they will ensure that there is no further action and will follow it up with a letter for our records.

Many, many thanks KeithP for putting me on to this forum. Very useful resource.

As for those who will say that she can appeal against the initial fine, tbh, I think it is a lesson learned and we will just leave it.

Many thanks to all those with helpful advice. I really appreciate it.