Paytrain ticket machines 1960's

[Ken H]

I am thinking of when paytrains were first introduced.

I seem to remember the Eastern Region used Almex machines like these...
https://memberfiles.freewebs.com/84...RIGHT-TICKET-MACHINES/ticket machines 009.JPG

These machines came in various versions with different numbers of sliding rows. Don't know how many rows BR ones had.

They were quite basic, and I dont think you could book through off the route. So no Ilkley-London tickets. You went into a special ticket office on Leeds station to get the Leeds-London ticket. That was on the old Plat 3.

If you started your journey at Leeds on a paytrain route, you didnt get your ticket at the ticket office, you just said 'paytrain' to the bloke on the barrier and bought your ticket on the train.

London Midland had quite different machines. and some minor stations used the same portable machines in the ticket offices. Can anyone find me an image for those?

No idea about other regions.

 

[Bevan Price]

Cannot help with pictures of ticket machines, but here is a selection of pay-train tickets:

 

[Harpers Tate]

....I dont think you could book through off the route. So no Ilkley-London tickets. You went into a special ticket office on Leeds station to get the Leeds-London ticket. That was on the old Plat 3.

If you started your journey at Leeds on a paytrain route, you didnt get your ticket at the ticket office, you just said 'paytrain' to the bloke on the barrier and bought your ticket on the train.

That's correct. And, in all honesty, how utterly dumb could the "powers that be" have been, at the time, to design such a scheme. No through fares, guard has to sell to the entire train, even those who board at a staffed station. You really couldn't make it up.

BR at the time was guilty of much idiocy (IMO) and this is an example. Unless, in fact, they were being clever - in that they were trying to generate justification for closures. Millions must have been lost in revenue not collected on, say, the Whitby branch with overloading and/or joined DMUs with no gangway, coupled with zero ability to buy a ticket other than onboard.

 

[Sprinter107]

The paytrain system did appear to be a bit strange. As well as being inflexible for longer distance travellers, it did seem a strange policy that local passengers had to by pass the ticket office to pay on the train.
I've got one of those London Midland area machines somewhere, but has jammed, and I'm not too sure how to free it up.

 

[30907]

I hadn't realised about not being able to purchase at a staffed station on the actual route (through fares were available but "warrant only" BTW).

The machines couldn't have easily coped with through fares, and doing without them altogether meant no paper tickets, and a simple range of (cash!) fares which were quick to issue.

Cambrian coast guards seemed to cope, and I'd be surprised if the Whitby ones didnt - they had enough time, and I presume they were incentivised via commission.

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....I'd be surprised if the Whitby ones didnt - they had enough time.....

Most often, because either
a) the train was rammed full or
b) the train was comprised of >1 unit or
c) both
There was also at some time also a "dispute" where there was (say) a 3 or 4 coach train - made up of one unit with gangways - but with all but two coaches locked out of use (supposedly because the guard could or would not go >1 coach length from the guards van), and the remaining coaches rammed full. So, no fares collected anyway. D'oh!

 

[Ken H]

The paytrain system did appear to be a bit strange. As well as being inflexible for longer distance travellers, it did seem a strange policy that local passengers had to by pass the ticket office to pay on the train.
I've got one of those London Midland area machines somewhere, but has jammed, and I'm not too sure how to free it up.

The ticket machines available at the time were just bus ticket machines, so not up to the job. When you compare with the powerful computers carried by present day guards, there is no comparison. And automatic ticket machines at stations have come on leaps and bounds too.< but have some odd restrictions on tickets they sell (Like the Northern ones that only sell tickets from the station they are situated at, and dont take cash)
Gerrard Feinnes was quite clear. Paytrain was the only way to save many branch lines. But not selling tickets at Leeds for Ilkley was perverse. Maybe it saved in ticket office work at Leeds. Dont know if thy retained the ticket office at Ilkley, but they did at Harrogate.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Plenty of pictures of old "BR Omniprinter ticket machines" on Google Images. These were used on LM and Western Regions. Can't get link to paste for some reason. Sorry.

There was simply no way that the technology (and supporting back office accountancy procedures, manuals, training, etc.) of 1963 would have allowed a guard on a branch line to sell a ticket to any station on the network.

 

[RT4038]

That's correct. And, in all honesty, how utterly dumb could the "powers that be" have been, at the time, to design such a scheme. No through fares, guard has to sell to the entire train, even those who board at a staffed station. You really couldn't make it up.

BR at the time was guilty of much idiocy (IMO) and this is an example. Unless, in fact, they were being clever - in that they were trying to generate justification for closures. Millions must have been lost in revenue not collected on, say, the Whitby branch with overloading and/or joined DMUs with no gangway, coupled with zero ability to buy a ticket other than onboard.

At the time, I think the system was tied up in industrial relations issues over commission. About as utterly dumb as some of the current working practices on the railway!

 

[Ken H]

Plenty of pictures of old "BR Omniprinter ticket machines" on Google Images. These were used on LM and Western Regions. Can't get link to paste for some reason. Sorry.

There was simply no way that the technology (and supporting back office accountancy procedures, manuals, training, etc.) of 1963 would have allowed a guard on a branch line to sell a ticket to any station on the network.

I think they could using the national fares manual and their excess pad. Dont know in what circumstances that was allowed.

 

[Taunton]

On a Sunday in 1973 I took a Glasgow Blue Train. Suburban ticket office closed (unusual in those days), notice to pay on train. Came in, only the doors on the front car opened, it was pretty full. Separate conductor with bus-type ticket machine, because it seems only the front car could have the doors opened individually, Guards compartment on these units was in the centre car, otherwise locked out but guard had to bell train away. With driver that made a crew of three and a three-car emu for a single car of passengers.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think they could using the national fares manual and their excess pad. Dont know in what circumstances that was allowed.

I thought that the National Fares Manual came a bit later but am happy to be corrected. The excess pad was no help at all in identifying ‘contributory revenue’ of course and they were very labour intensive for checking back in the office.

 

[Ken H]

I thought that the National Fares Manual came a bit later but am happy to be corrected. The excess pad was no help at all in identifying ‘contributory revenue’ of course and they were very labour intensive for checking back in the office.

I dont know. I just remember guards carrying them. cant think when tho

 

[30907]

Undoubtedly guards could write out tickets, but it was time-consuming for them, even when fares were more or less mileage-based (which is when paytrains came in). Simplicity and speed won!

 

[Ken H]

Undoubtedly guards could write out tickets, but it was time-consuming for them, even when fares were more or less mileage-based (which is when paytrains came in). Simplicity and speed won!

if he was on commission, and he had the chance to sell an Ilkley - Plymouth return, I think he would do that rather than get the odd quid for local tickets.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The internet suggests that the first Selective fares manual came out in September 1968 (which needed regional supplements) and the National Fares Manual didn't appear until 1985. They were all quite bulky and often left in the guard's bag. Some individuals somehow managed to roll them up and stuff into a uniform pocket but it wasn't a good look!
Having been responsible for a large number of (Commercially trained) Guards (who got commission) and Assistant Ticket Examiners (who didn't get commission as it was their sole responsibility) I am well aware of 'transaction sorting', where the ATE, on being asked for a long distance ticket, would sportingly say "my colleague will be along in a minute".

 

[Grumpy]

That's correct. And, in all honesty, how utterly dumb could the "powers that be" have been, at the time, to design such a scheme. No through fares, guard has to sell to the entire train, even those who board at a staffed station. You really couldn't make it up.

BR at the time was guilty of much idiocy (IMO) and this is an example. Unless, in fact, they were being clever - in that they were trying to generate justification for closures. Millions must have been lost in revenue not collected on, say, the Whitby branch with overloading and/or joined DMUs with no gangway, coupled with zero ability to buy a ticket other than onboard.

I suspect one of the reasons for this apparently daft arrangement was the Cooper Brothers costing system imposed by Government. If all ticket issue/collection was done on the train then the service wouldn't have to bear a share of the costs at major shared stations. Thus taking the Wharfedale line as an example (and I cant recall if it was actually Paytrain) there would be no such costs charged for access to Leeds station. If however Leeds Booking office was issuing tickets then the service would have to bear a proportionate share (branch passengers to total passengers) of the total booking and enquiry office costs, which might be substantial. Similarly for ticket collection.
So rather than trying to generate justification for closures, they were trying to reduce the apparent cost of running such branches and making them appear less uneconomic.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

The first that I can remember was the 'Setrite' which was used when a handful of stations in South Wales was unstaffed in the late evenings back in the Sixties. The same machines were used by the local bus companies.

 

[Cymroglan]

Back in the 1980s, our manager was a really serious ticket collector. When I was briefly seconded to work in Salisbury, he asked me to buy tickets from as many machines as possible owned by a particular bus company whose name I forget.
The reason for this strange request was that one or more of their machines had been used by guards in, I think, Gloucestershire. A quick check online leads me to conclude the machines he was interested in were Setright Speeds. I was treated as an amiable idiot by the various bus drivers I spoke to, but succeeded in my mission.