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Penalties after railcards expire

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Haywain

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Upgrading TVMs is of course a bigger (and, crucially, more expensive) job but, again, it's not impossible.
An analysis of cost against benefit will make it impossible to justify and, for many TVMs, making such a change will physically be a very difficult thing to do as it would mean cutting holes in the casing and finding mounting points for the scanning equipment.
 
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swt_passenger

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An analysis of cost against benefit will make it impossible to justify and, for many TVMs, making such a change will physically be a very difficult thing to do as it would mean cutting holes in the casing and finding mounting points for the scanning equipment.
A splash screen prompt “is your railcard with you and still in date” must be fairly straightforward, as someone mentioned earlier SWR’s machines already ask a similar question. Perhaps “not expired” rather than “valid” might be better, validity might be seen as referring to the time restrictions…
 

WesternLancer

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Coming at this from the other angle, I would argue that part of the emerging problem is that Railcards are simply not checked often enough. I think I get asked two or three times per year, maybe 3.5 if you include very rare occasions where TfL have asked for proof of Oyster discount.

This means that when rail companies do find people without a valid railcard they feel they have to throw the book at them, because they may have got away with it 20 times already. And a friendly policy to expiries within a month will just lead to calculating people squeezing an extra month out every year in the expectation that they won’t be asked.

If the need to show a Railcard were more frequent, rail companies could be assured that not much revenue has been lost, and a smaller charge (such as retrospective renewal plus an undiscounted ticket) could be levied instead.

On the other hand, as most railcards cost £30, someone using a standard railcard less than 30 days post expiry has deprived the railway of at most £2.50 of revenue (ignoring that railcards can’t be paid for monthly). Arguably they could be expected to swallow the loss for such a petty sum.
Totally this - when most tickets were bought at ticket windows the card was checked at point of purchase by staff. Risk of a problem on the journey very much reduced as a result of staffed point of sale. Since 'self serve' channel shift to buy your own ticket from TVM or on line that responsibility passes more to the customer - who is then prone to either forgetting or thinking they will get away with a discount to which they are not entitled just by pressing a button, click of a mouse.

So industry thus does need to think of a way to prevent the issue more pro-actively - as not the best customer service to just say 'sorry, it's your responsibility, you failed that - we'll threaten you with court action'
 

30907

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When buying a ticket from a TVM, for the SWR ones there is normally a box which pops up to confirm you are carrying a valid railcard when you select the railcard discount.
However, if you have set a Railcard in your account (or app?), then the discount is applied automatically, which is why an additional reminder might help.
I have just logged into my LNER account as a test - if I set Railcard in my preferences, it asks the expiry date (I'll find out eventually whether this triggers any response!).
Asking people online (not at TVMs) to confirm the expiry date when booking would take a fraction longer but might be more effective than a check box. There would be no need for this to be cross-checked against a database - if someone puts incorrect information in to get round the check, and then travels, this will be picked up by manual checking in the normal way.way

(And if you try to book a ticket beyond the expiry date, it can just trigger a warning, not refuse the purchase.)
 

ricoblade

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I've had Two Together and Family and Friends Railcards on my phone in the app and have never had a prompt or notification about expiry. I'm pretty sure I'd always check them before booking, though this is infrequent so I'd check each time. In fact I just looked at the app now and it is empty, I haven't travelled on a train since the first lockdown so I'm not surprised.
 

Deafdoggie

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Driving licence renewals at 70 - yes, you got a reminder through the post about 2 or 3 months before expiry BUT during 2020, I know folk who should have received one but didn't - presumably due to pandemic disruption.
You need to renew your driving licence photo at least every 10 years. Again, they remind you though.
 

SussexMan

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You cannot have a system which requires the customer to enter the Railcard number because you don't need a valid Railcard to purchase a ticket with a discount - you just need a valid Railcard when you travel. If I want to book a ticket in advance and get a cheaper ticket but not purchase a Railcard until I travel, I should be able to do so. If I buy a ticket 6 weeks ahead but know I'm not going to use the train in those six weeks, why would I want to waste 6 weeks of validity.
 

Bletchleyite

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You cannot have a system which requires the customer to enter the Railcard number because you don't need a valid Railcard to purchase a ticket with a discount - you just need a valid Railcard when you travel. If I want to book a ticket in advance and get a cheaper ticket but not purchase a Railcard until I travel, I should be able to do so. If I buy a ticket 6 weeks ahead but know I'm not going to use the train in those six weeks, why would I want to waste 6 weeks of validity.

People keep saying this, but before online sales you did have to present the Railcard to purchase a discounted ticket at the ticket office.
 

island

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You need to renew your driving licence photo at least every 10 years. Again, they remind you though.
I needed to renew my photo this February and received no reminder of any sort.

The system is appallingly backward; as I am not a British passport holder I could only renew by going to a post office, physically obtaining a paper form, completing it with a physical passport size photo, and posting it with a cheque or postal order.
 

H2D

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Why not just impose a (large) fine and confiscate expired railcards when they happen rather than proceed with this horrible journey of potentially prosecuting people for a minor oversight?
 

AlterEgo

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Why not just impose a (large) fine and confiscate expired railcards when they happen rather than proceed with this horrible journey of potentially prosecuting people for a minor oversight?
How do you propose issuing people with a fine, which can only be done in a criminal court, and also at the same time...not...prosecute...them?
 

H2D

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How do you propose issuing people with a fine, which can only be done in a criminal court, and also at the same time...not...prosecute...them?
Easily

You get stopped and you don’t have a valid railcard. The person stopping you issues you with a notice that says something along the lines of “You have broken [X] rule/railway law, you can choose to pay [£X] now/within [X] days and have the matter closed or we will take you to court”

At least then people have the option of rectifying their mistake rather than having a criminal record for forgetfulness
 

AlterEgo

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Easily

You get stopped and you don’t have a valid railcard. The person stopping you issues you with a notice that says something along the lines of “You have broken [X] rule/railway law, you can choose to pay [£X] now/within [X] days and have the matter closed or we will take you to court”

At least then people have the option of rectifying their mistake rather than having a criminal record for forgetfulness
That's not a fine then, just to be clear. A fine can only be imposed by a court.

You're detailing an existing process - the Unpaid Fare Notice, which is effectively no more than an invoice.
 

Haywain

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You're detailing an existing process - the Unpaid Fare Notice, which is effectively no more than an invoice.
I think that what's being proposed is an out of court settlement. Rather like the current process but without having to wait for a letter and then reply to it.
 

robbeech

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People keep saying this, but before online sales you did have to present the Railcard to purchase a discounted ticket at the ticket office.
you used to have to walk infront of a car with a flag but you don't anymore so there's little point referring to it :) (obviously i understand your point)
I needed to renew my photo this February and received no reminder of any sort.

The system is appallingly backward; as I am not a British passport holder I could only renew by going to a post office, physically obtaining a paper form, completing it with a physical passport size photo, and posting it with a cheque or postal order.
But they're a different breed aren't they. Determined to keep pre war Britain alive and well. I personally believe it's a game to them, and nobody has yet been able to prove otherwise.
 

MotCO

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I needed to renew my photo this February and received no reminder of any sort.

I have received a reminder to renew my driving licence since it was 10 years old, and tried to do it on-line. For some reason it would not let me, and insisted I had to go to a Post Office and pay more for the privilege! (I actually sent through a photo renewal form to DVLA instead and saved myself a few quid - I wonder if they will issue a new 10 year licence, or insist I go to a Post Office?)
 

Horizon22

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My partner nearly did this by habit the other day and was one click away from buying before I advised her to check - it had indeed expired 1 month beforehand. I think there's some very quick messaging that can be done such as splash messages on websites reminding people about it and so on and trying to spread awareness. Ultimately though it's a passenger responsibility, but I do agree its important to try and pre-warn people.

And I think staff briefs to guards would be helpful, if not for good customer service and to offer a bit of leniency in what have been strange times
 

1955LR

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I nearly did the same, purchased tickets a couple of weeks ago online , automatically clicking on the appropriate discount. Minutes before I travelled , I did remember to check my card and fortunately found it expired 2 days after the planned journey. I had it in my head that expired the following month. Easily done.
 

plugwash

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You need to renew your driving licence photo at least every 10 years. Again, they remind you though.
The current driving license system is rather discriminatory, people who have a photocard license are forced to renew it every 10 years, but people who still have their paper license can keep it until they are 70.

On top of that people who passed their test more recently are more restricted in what vehicles they can drive.
 

robbeech

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On top of that people who passed their test more recently are more restricted in what vehicles they can drive.
And the roads are safer as a result with less people dragging massive caravans around on the back of a van with absolutely zero additional training.
 

londonteacher

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My take on this is, it's not hard to check your railcard validity. Either look at the physical card or open the app. It's not hard. Yes, a reminder would be nice, but do we need everyone to do everything for us?

Penalty Fares should be given as this is something that is completely in the customer's control. You wouldn't turn up at the airport without checking your passport is valid which is a condition of travel just like a valid railcard is part of the condition of travel for a railcard discounted ticket.
 

zwk500

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My take on this is, it's not hard to check your railcard validity. Either look at the physical card or open the app. It's not hard. Yes, a reminder would be nice, but do we need everyone to do everything for us?

Penalty Fares should be given as this is something that is completely in the customer's control. You wouldn't turn up at the airport without checking your passport is valid which is a condition of travel just like a valid railcard is part of the condition of travel for a railcard discounted ticket.
We don't need everyone to do everything for us, but given the past year a helpful prompt isn't an unreasonable thing from a Customer service point of view.

You are regularly reminded to check your passport is valid according to the rules of the country you are visiting. I don't see a reminder to check the validity of your railcard as anything different.
 

Mag_seven

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Why do people need to be spoon fed everything these days. Surely its not that difficult to check that the thing that is entitling you to a discount is in date. I remember when I had a railcard back in the day I was always conscious of its expiry date purely because I didn't want to cease to be valid for discounts!
 

zwk500

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Why do people need to be spoon fed everything these days. Surely its not that difficult to check that the thing that is entitling you to a discount is in date. I remember when I had a railcard back in the day I was always conscious of its expiry date purely because I didn't want to cease to be valid for discounts!
The point is that in normal times, you would be regularly reminded of the expiry date every time you bought a ticket, but because of Covid many people may well not have looked at their card for 14 months. A gentle hint to check it is not spoon feeding, but good customer service. Some of the suggestions to verify validity with scannable cards and numbers are more involved than necessary.
 

londonteacher

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If you can remember to buy a ticket with a railcard discount then you can remember to check the date.

If people can buy a discounted ticket but not check the validity of their railcard they deserve the penalty fare.
 

Watershed

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If you can remember to buy a ticket with a railcard discount then you can remember to check the date.

If people can buy a discounted ticket but not check the validity of their railcard they deserve the penalty fare.
Plenty of apps and websites (notably including The Trainline, which a lot of the general public use as their go-to) will save the last Railcard/discount you used and automatically apply it to your next search.

As you never get asked for your Railcard expiry date this means you could quite easily buy a ticket, having forgotten to deselect the Railcard discount.

Things often aren't as black and white as they might first seem.
 

londonteacher

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Plenty of apps and websites (notably including The Trainline, which a lot of the general public use as their go-to) will save the last Railcard/discount you used and automatically apply it to your next search.

As you never get asked for your Railcard expiry date this means you could quite easily buy a ticket, having forgotten to deselect the Railcard discount.

Things often aren't as black and white as they might first seem.
As much as I agree with your point, ultimately the customer is responsible for ensuring their ticket is valid. To a TOC it is just an invalid ticket.

They could have paid the fare difference or purchased a railcard before travelling.
 

zwk500

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As much as I agree with your point, ultimately the customer is responsible for ensuring their ticket is valid. To a TOC it is just an invalid ticket.

They could have paid the fare difference or purchased a railcard before travelling.
And all a splash warning is doing is assisting the customer in doing so. In the long run, being helpful rather than perceived to be trapping people for punitive measures will yield far more revenue to the railway.
 
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