Penalty fare given to family

[Fawkes Cat]

Is it worth going back to what @Juggler quoted from the Northern Website back at post #56?

What is a Promise to Pay notice?

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.

(source:https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares)

Assuming this to be definitive, it doesn’t say ‘if customers only have cash’. It says ‘ if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card’. That includes only having cash - but to my reading would also include having plastic which for whatever reason fails to work. On this broad reading I suppose travel without having the cash to buy a ticket would also be covered - but at the point where one tried to replace the Promise to Pay notice with a ticket I suspect one would run into problems with a S5(3)(a) RoRA1889 offence:

If any person—
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,
he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F4level 3 on the standard scale], or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding [F4level 3 on the standard scale], or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [F5three months].

(Source: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/section/5)

(n.b. Note the distinction between S5(1) on the one hand, and S5(3) on the other: for S5(1) doing any of the 3 things clears the offence, whereas for S5(3) any one of the three things is enough to be an offence)

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if you turn up at an unmanned station and for whatever reason the tvm won’t accept your card.

It depends what reason. If the reason is that the card is faulty or there's insufficient balance on it, or it's been blocked, then you don't have a valid method of payment. If the TVM isn't accepting a perfectly good card, then that's different.

It's obviously fine to then get a PTP and pay cash.

I think the old Metrolink approach of phoning up to report the problem to get a reference number for a free journey is the best way to handle this. Guards could also be allowed to issue such authority if spoken to BEFORE boarding.

 

[Efini92]

It depends what reason. If the reason is that the card is faulty or there's insufficient balance on it, or it's been blocked, then you don't have a valid method of payment. If the TVM isn't accepting a perfectly good card, then that's different.

It's obviously fine to then get a PTP and pay cash.

I think the old Metrolink approach of phoning up to report the problem to get a reference number for a free journey is the best way to handle this. Guards could also be allowed to issue such authority if spoken to BEFORE boarding.

It just seems crazy if you’re actually trying to pay. I could understand it if you were caught trying to leave the station or get through the barriers.

 

[Watershed]

Guards could also be allowed to issue such authority if spoken to BEFORE boarding.

At intermediate stations, the average person would be very unlikely to have sufficient knowledge or time to find the guard before boarding. It's only really feasible before the train departs its origin, or if it otherwise has an extended dwell.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At intermediate stations, the average person would be very unlikely to have sufficient knowledge or time to find the guard before boarding. It's only really feasible before the train departs its origin, or if it otherwise has an extended dwell.

We're talking Northern here - short trains, all guard operated. If you stand by the train you can see them. They're the one shouting to you to stop faffing about and get on

The same approach wouldn't work on a 12-car peak time LNR.

 

[Watershed]

We're talking Northern here - short trains, all guard operated. If you stand by the train you can see them. They're the one shouting to you to stop faffing about and get on

The same approach wouldn't work on a 12-car peak time LNR.

Good luck finding the guard on a 6 coach 331 before departure from Leyland, Euxton etc. if you're an average member of the public. The guard won't hold the train for you to walk along the platform to find them!

It's a completely ludicrous proposal, I'm afraid. Customers shouldn't be inconvenienced because of failings on the part of the industry.

 

[Birmingham]

Guards could also be allowed to issue such authority if spoken to BEFORE boarding.

Is that provision not already available under the NRCoT?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that provision not already available under the NRCoT?

They are, yes, but if you just sit down and wait for them there's a good chance you won't get a chance before you see an RPI.

 

[Birmingham]

They are, yes, but if you just sit down and wait for them there's a good chance you won't get a chance before you see an RPI.

Of course; I mean before boarding. I’ve done so successfully a number of times. It also serves as prompting them to come round with the ticket machine at all, as they sometimes do not!

 

[jumble]

I've provided the quote and link. No mention of those who 'cannot' pay by card. The words are 'the customers who do not have the facility'.

If I have a card I have the facility, its not my issue if the tech fails or someone has smeared the TVM and payment card reader with bodily fluids and excrement (which I have encountered).

You need to look at the history.

Promise to pay was 'invented' when Northern introduced cashless TVMs and needed to a way to ensure anyone who only had cash had a 'ticket' to travel. The ticket was a Promise to Pay.

Unfortunately it would take a very expensive series of Court cases to get case law which defines what a Promise to Pay is and whether it covers cash payments only or failed card readers as well. That is highly unlikely to happen so Northern will continue to dish out penalty notices.

Whenever a TVM or card payment fails I always take a photo of the TVM screen.

If you were to think about this for 2 seconds you would realise that you are mistaken
Are you seriously suggesting that if someone puts superglue in the card slot then the next person has the facility to pay if they have a credit card in their hand and should be prohibited from paying cash at the next available opportunity and be fined instead ?
We could liken this to claiming that a person holding a £50.00 note going into a shop that does not accept £50.00 notes has a facility to pay for their goods if the shop accepted the note which is true but irrelevant

 

[Runningaround]

I think you can appeal 2nd or 3rd time (and there is evidence on here that more chance of success in subsequent rounds)

BUT - my fear is these appeals will fail because:

- on Northern if the ticket machine does not work by virtue of failing to take your card payment then you are supposed to obtain a 'permit / permission to travel' type ticket (issued free by the machine) - did any of them obtain one of these? If not they are on weak grounds I suspect

- I do not believe there would have been no staff on the train as I think all those trains have guards on board (I do believe that the staff may not have come round to check tickets or sell tickets to people who had not got them before boarding the train, but that is a different matter and would not be grounds for a successful appeal) - so the pertinent issue would be did any of them go and find the guard, knock on the door of the back cab where they might be - to try and purchase a ticket? Or did they sit tight thinking they could just pay at Leeds - and then this happened.

So I suspect the best course of action might be to pay the Penalty Fare quickly or the cost of this will go up - but probably best you wait for a few more replies as others more familiar with Northern ticket machines and Penalty fares might correct me if any of the above is wrong!

At what number of passengers does this become impractical? If a TVM isn't working or available should each passenger then head for the guards door and form a queue?

 

[WesternLancer]

At what number of passengers does this become impractical? If a TVM isn't working or available should each passenger then head for the guards door and form a queue?

each case judged on the circs - but in this case it could be the person who tried to buy the tickets from the TVM who could go to find the guard and ask to buy all 6 day rtn tickets - I would suggest - BUT we know people are not under obligation to do this. However, when they were 'pay trains' the guard would have been expected to sell a ticket to everyone who got on after all.
But as I have said before the OP is not answering the questions on these details so to be honest probably not worth continuing this thread really.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

At what number of passengers does this become impractical? If a TVM isn't working or available should each passenger then head for the guards door and form a queue?

And yet I've had this many times on the Snow Hill line, especially when Whitlock's End TVM is out in the morning! They all wait where the back cab will be and ask to buy a ticket before getting on.

 

[Runningaround]

And yet I've had this many times on the Snow Hill line, especially when Whitlock's End TVM is out in the morning! They all wait where the back cab will be and ask to buy a ticket before getting on.

I live along a line that has no TVM's and two booking offices most of the year, buying off the guard is still significantly the most popular purchase for small local transactions. It's pot luck if the guard manages to get to you before you get off. Only the most determined passenger will approach the guard to buy who inevitably tells them to sit down and they'll be around with the machine.

Where RPIs are needed is not trying to catch a couple of passengers who have got so used to buying on board from stations that have just installed a TVM and haven't had a booking office in over twenty, but by travelling up along the Cambrian Coast and sell tickets so the guard can do the doors. They could even while waiting 40 minutes at a station with a new one encourage and show the passengers how to use it. But that would cut down on there sales if they did that.

 

[Skie]

Is it worth going back to what @Juggler quoted from the Northern Website back at post #56?


(source:https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares)

Assuming this to be definitive, it doesn’t say ‘if customers only have cash’. It says ‘ if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card’. That includes only having cash - but to my reading would also include having plastic which for whatever reason fails to work. On this broad reading I suppose travel without having the cash to buy a ticket would also be covered - but at the point where one tried to replace the Promise to Pay notice with a ticket I suspect one would run into problems with a S5(3)(a) RoRA1889 offence:

I think it reads in such a way as to allow a customer to claim that they had the facility to pay by card, but the toc did not provide a working means to do so. Ergo no promise to pay is required.

Northern really should word it to say in what scenarios they mean for ptps to be used in rather than ambiguous language open to interpretation.