penalty fare help

[jon0844]

Permit to Travel machines then.

But they can't take cash! I've been to that station - the PTT machine would be broken into every day.

The only possible solution is a PTT that issues a permit for nil cost, but that doesn't really help. It certainly allows people to avoid getting a PF if stopped, but I can't see how it helps the TOC in any way.

 

[philjo]

I suppose it would prove that the passenger was on the platform at that specific station at the date/time printed on the PTT.
However it wouldn't prove that anyone wasn't travelling further (by getting off, obtaining the PTT & boarding the next train. also the passenger might have more problems if the PTT machine was faulty/run out of paper etc

 

[jon0844]

I can see that there's a good opportunity for fraud with someone having an Oyster travelcard for less zones, getting on there and just chancing it the majority of the time. If you're on an all stations train (as I expect most are?) then as long as you're checked once you've entered your covered zones, you'll go undetected as they'll just scan your Oyster and get the green light. They won't ask everyone where they got on, or have any way to know.

If you are stopped sooner than that, you can just say you couldn't buy your extension and pay there and then (rather than being given a PF which they can't). Or they have to investigate you over a period of time and prove that day in, day out, you do this - and when not checked, you never pay for your extension at the destination. How likely are they to do this? Possible more than most other TOCs, but probably still slim.

A permit machine wouldn't therefore help much, as you'd still keep quiet but know you have a 'get of jail card' to simply prove what you're claiming anyway. Only if you were found to have put in just 5p when you had money to pay the full fare (or as much as possible) could they perhaps do something, and even then I am not sure about the legals on someone just paying 5p when they had more money.

A permit with nothing to pay is pointless, as nobody COULD pay the right fare even if they wanted to. So you might as well not bother with one, unless the permit is simply to cover people who might get accused of joining the train elsewhere. I am sure that happens.

You know the real solution is to have the station staffed and the money emptied regularly to make it pointless to break into them, but that isn't going to be economically viable (but, hey, if London Overground ever did take over - chances are it would be).

Or, perhaps do a deal with a nearby garden centre to offer ticketing facilities (in the form of a TVM) which would at least mean there's a way to buy tickets during normal shop opening hours. It's been a while since I lived near there, so I can't remember how close the nearest shop is.

 

[Be3G]

I live in Enfield so have been to Crews Hill a few times (most recently, December last year to buy Christmas tree decorations), and as far as I can tell there're no ‘local’ shops whatsoever – which has always struck me as a bit odd. Nowhere to buy a newspaper or a cheap pint of milk/loaf of bread; if you want either of those you have to go to Cuffley or down to Lavender Hill (by Gordon Hill station, for those less familiar with the area). Some of the garden centres do sell food, but I think they tend to be at fancy-farm-shop-type prices.

Similarly, there's nowhere at all in Crews Hill to top up one's Oyster. Even the bus service is minimal by London standards: just four buses a day Mon–Fri, jumping up to seven on a Saturday.

As an aside, catching a train from Crews Hill, with its preponderance of garden centres, can provide amusing sights of people lugging small trees and the like on to the train!

 

[maniacmartin]

I notice from Google Streetview that they did think it was secure enough to install a machine to issue tickets for the pay-and-display station car park (in conjunction with NCP). Then again GSV also shows a TVM so the photography may be woefully out of date

 

[Harlesden]

Might it be useful for the OP to go this page http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/cwh/details.html and selecting "Ticket Buying and Collection" and then doing a screen print to send with any appeal

 

[jon0844]

and as far as I can tell there're no ‘local’ shops whatsoever

I don't think there has ever been any local shop, which suggests the passengers using the station must be minimal (or all drive there to commute).

However, isn't there a garden centre nearby? They could install a machine somewhere there, where it is effectively watched.

A car park machine is also vulnerable, but perhaps there's a difference in that they deliberately don't give change which means they don't need to hold a float. All coins drop down to a secure vault (how secure depends on the design I guess).

A TVM would give change and need to hold a float, which is probably relatively easy to get to in comparison to the cash box. Even if people failed to get inside, they'd end up doing loads of damage to the machine trying.

I suppose that does mean a PTT machine might be viable as they don't give change either, thinking about it.

 

[Be3G]

Yep there is a garden centre across the road – well, really, Crews Hill is full of the things. I think, though, that there'd be a greater chance of installing Oyster facilities in a shop than a full-sized ticket machine.

Wikipedia's figures suggest an average of about 230 passengers per day, which surprises me actually; I was expecting less. I imagine the level of ticketing fraud committed from Crews Hill is low really… it's a wealthy area, and probably most of the train's users are commuters with season tickets. I don't think you'd get many people going to Crews Hill deliberately so they could use the train without paying, as the car park's only small and as mentioned earlier there's hardly any bus service. So there'd probably be very little ticketing revenue to be had from having any machine located nearby.

 

[jon0844]

Fair point.

I know it's full of garden centres, but people wouldn't walk to one to buy a ticket if the nearest one is too far away.

I guess the solution is to, well, do nothing!

 

[Roylang]

Fair point.

I know it's full of garden centres, but people wouldn't walk to one to buy a ticket if the nearest one is too far away.

I guess the solution is to, well, do nothing!

Is that not the best solution? After all, this thread appears to have been resulted from a single instance of a member of staff not being trained / not understanding the situation. An appeal and retraining of that member of staff is probably a quicker / cheaper option.

Roy

 

[ciar1]

Thank you for all the helpful replies and interesting speculation into the lack of facilities at Crews hill! I was a bit confused by the suggestion it would get broken into if they installed a machine as somebody else said it is a wealthy area and there's not much there so I can't think who would do that.

Anyway, I got an email today to say the penalty had been cancelled (Thank you for telling me what to write Ferret)

BUT that I owed them another £2.50 for the fare! I know that is not a lot but the fact is I already paid the fare of £3+ on the train, as advised by the inspector who told me to appeal the rest of the penalty so why would they now think I had randomly just paid that amount?!

So...what now? Do I just pay it and give up with their nonsense or try to contest it?

 

[jon0844]

Is that not the best solution? After all, this thread appears to have been resulted from a single instance of a member of staff not being trained / not understanding the situation. An appeal and retraining of that member of staff is probably a quicker / cheaper option.

Yeah, but as its a forum there's no harm discussing things and seeing if there's a solution to prevent further problems. I'm sure the OP wanted ticket facilities to buy the ticket he wanted and pay in full!

 

[Roylang]

Yeah, but as its a forum there's no harm discussing things and seeing if there's a solution to prevent further problems. I'm sure the OP wanted ticket facilities to buy the ticket he wanted and pay in full!

I know, and that is what I was doing, giving support to your point!

Roy

 

[jon0844]

I was a bit confused by the suggestion it would get broken into if they installed a machine as somebody else said it is a wealthy area and there's not much there so I can't think who would do that.

Not all criminals are local residents!! The fact is, it's a pretty quiet and secluded station where the machine could probably be easily broken into. The same could be said about the car park machine of course, although if most people have season tickets they probably got a season ticket for parking too (I doubt they'd pay the daily peak rate!).

Even Cuffley had its machines attacked numerous times and that's far, far busier.

 

[Ferret]

Ok - well I'm confused! Where do they get the £2.50 from?!

 

[LexyBoy]

Have they cancelled the full £20 of the PF, or just the "penalty" portion?

£2.50 is the fare to Boundary Zone 4... as FCC are not known for understanding how zones work, perhaps whoever wrote the letter thought that there's no gap between BZ4 and Zone 3? ...Or just misread that you had a Z1-4 Travelcard.

 

[ciar1]

They have just cancelled the penalty portion, which is fair enough as I was told not to pay anymore when I got to London by the inspector. The reason they are asking for £2.50, it seems, is that the fare for the whole journey is £6.10. I was asked to pay (or rather I asked to pay before this penalty fare business started) the £3.60 for the journey to zone 3 on the train but now they are claiming I owe the rest of the fare. Presumably either because they haven't read it correctly or because I did not send my oyster record showing my travelcard as requested. I'm just confused as to why they would think I paid this random amount when clearly it was their ticket inspector that told me how much it was!

Oh well, I will pay it, even though they are wrong...

 

[Ferret]

Not sure I would, on a point of principle! And I'd be writing to FCC on a matter of principle too, regarding you having to waste your time sorting out the issue. Clearly worth 20 quid of travel vouchers from where I'm sat (I work for a different rail company!).

 

[LexyBoy]

I wouldn't pay it either. I'd ask them why they think you should pay it, given that as you say the inspector charged the (correct) fare to BZ3.

 

[bb21]

I am confused by the fare quoted.

£2.50 is the single fare from Crews Hill to Boundary Zone 4
£3.10 is the fare to Boundary Zone 3
£3.60 is the fare to Boundary Zone 2

If you have already paid £3.60, I would write to FCC and request the reimbursement of 50p which you were over-charged by, rather than pay another £2.50.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with bb21 - I wouldn't pay another £2.50 if you have already paid more than you should have!