Penalty fare - invalid railcard discount appeal help needed!

[Estelle]

Hi everyone,

I am new and registered because other threads are well-answered. I have been asking around for a while but no one seem to be able to help, this is my last resort. Please help if you can

I took the bus to work which stops near a train station then took train for one stop because it was raining. I used the Cross Country mobile app to buy my ticket, which automatically apply my railcard because I added it last time. The train journey was so short, all ticket are Anytime Day Singles. On screen it highlighted one ticket as cheapest fare so I brought that, the next page even noted the ticket as "travel any time of day".

I showed my ticket to the operator at station A and he let me through. I got off at station B around 09am and was pulled aside when I was trying to activate my ticket, at which point I was told and learnt my ticket is invalid. Turns out the ticket I brought was cheaper because it was the first ticket after 10am so the railcard applied. I stupidly thought it was because that train was ran by another company, just like London Midlands/Virgin.

He did not believe that I could get through the barriers at station A without activating the ticket. Actually, the ticket activated or not, shows that it is an anytime day single from station A to station B, I guess his colleague thought it looked alright too when he let me through.

I was issued with a fine as he jumps to the conclusion that I must have got on at another station without a barrier but brought a ticket for a shorter journey. He told me that they can easily check the CCTV to prove that I got on at another station. So I have ended up with this fine before I knew what was going on. Every time I asked, they treated me like a criminal who was arguing and lying. I did afterall unknowingly travel with an invalid ticket but I feel like I should appeal. Google says the law never intends to fine honest people.

So any advice will be life saving, I feel so stressed from this...

1. Is it really common sense that 16 - 25 railcards cannot be used before 10:00? I literally had no idea because I never had to travel before 10:00 ever since I got my railcard. I don't know the terms and conditions of a railcard inside out either, only that it saves up to 1/3 of the price. Am I the only one?
2. Is it true that he can easily check the CCTV to see which station I got on? This sounds like a fishy threat. Surely for Data Protection and security, staff can't just get access to CCTV?
3. Is CCTV footage something they are likely to send to the Appeal Service (AS) as evidence, because that would be great proof? It says on DfT's code of conduct that AS cannot access CCTV but they can ask for relevant information from the train company.
4. The code of conduct also says that "Train companies are also required to provide Appeal Service with a copy of their Penalty Fare Scheme (as approved by DfT), a copy of the written instructions and guidance given to Authorised Collectors about how they should implement the Penalty Fare Scheme and how they should use their discretion." I have phoned the train company asking for a copy of their Penalty Fare Scheme but was told no such document exists. So what is this discretion they should use? How do I know if the operator was going against policy or not?

Thank you to eveyone who try to help!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hi Estelle

There is a minimum fare of £12.00 on 16 to 25 fares before 1000 on weekdays so if you had selected the correct train on your app it should have automatically applied that discount.

The onus legally is on the customer to have the correct ticket for the journey their undertaking.

"The man at the other station station said it was ok" defence has been tried and tried for years but will get you no nowhere unfortunatly.

As brutal as it sounds pressing the wrong button on a very small mobile phone screen has probably cost you close to a three figure sum. I wouldn't do anything monetary over a mobile smart phone as a general principle and especially not when your on the move as unless you really know what your doing the potential margin for error caused by only seeing a small screen that doesn't display all the information you need is great.

 

[yorkie]

...I was issued with a fine as he jumps to the conclusion that I must have got on at another station without a barrier but brought a ticket for a shorter journey....

If you were issued with a Penalty Fare (as the title suggests) this wouldn't appear to be correct.

I would argue the following rule should apply:

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction,

My understanding is that the train company can either charge you an excess fare or they can prosecute you, which could result in a fine if you were found guilty.

Google says the law never intends to fine honest people.

I'm surprised Google said that. Do you have a source for Google saying this? Not that it matters either what Google say, or websites found through a Google search, say. What matters is what the relevant laws , rules and conditions say.

If you were issued with a Penalty Fare, this is not actually a fine; it is a higher than normal fare issued to people who make a mistake under certain circumstances, that I appreciate feels like a fine, but it's actually something else.

So any advice will be life saving, I feel so stressed from this...

• Is it really common sense that 16 - 25 railcards cannot be used before 10:00? I literally had no idea because I never had to travel before 10:00 ever since I got my railcard. I don't know the terms and conditions of a railcard inside out either, only that it saves up to 1/3 of the price. Am I the only one?

16-25 Railcards can be used at any time, except for the £12 minimum fare before 10am on weekdays during September to June (inclusive).

https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/8/

Can I use my 16-25 Railcard at any time of day?
Yes you can. However, for all journeys made between 4.30am and 10am Monday to Friday a minimum fare of £12 is payable. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August.

• Is it true that he can easily check the CCTV to see which station I got on? This sounds like a fishy threat. Surely for Data Protection and security, staff can't just get access to CCTV?

It probably won't be "easy" and the member of staff who stopped you probably won't have access to CCTV.

At my workplace only a small proportion of people have access to CCTV.

• The code of conduct also says that "Train companies are also required to provide Appeal Service with a copy of their Penalty Fare Scheme (as approved by DfT), a copy of the written instructions and guidance given to Authorised Collectors about how they should implement the Penalty Fare Scheme and how they should use their discretion." I have phoned the train company asking for a copy of their Penalty Fare Scheme but was told no such document exists. So what is this discretion they should use? How do I know if the operator was going against policy or not?

Thank you to eveyone who try to help!

You called West Midlands Trains (the train company who have taken over the franchise previously held by London Midland)? They should have given you a copy. It may be worth having that telephone call again and record it. I'd also email them so there is a record of the correspondence.

Have you actually paid it? My advice is to pay it ASAP (if you have not already done so) but to both appeal it and escalate the matter to Transport Focus, the Department for Transport, the Office of Road & Rail, and your MP.

 

[Estelle]

Hi Estelle

There is a minimum fare of £12.00 on 16 to 25 fares before 1000 on weekdays so if you had selected the correct train on your app it should have automatically applied that discount.

The onus legally is on the customer to have the correct ticket for the journey their undertaking.

"The man at the other station station said it was ok" defence has been tried and tried for years but will get you no nowhere unfortunatly.

As brutal as it sounds pressing the wrong button on a very small mobile phone screen has probably cost you close to a three figure sum. I wouldn't do anything monetary over a mobile smart phone as a general principle and especially not when your on the move as unless you really know what your doing the potential margin for error caused by only seeing a small screen that doesn't display all the information you need is great.

Thanks for helping Gareth. I saw the £12 minimum fare rule too when I did some research after. Definitely wasn't aware of it before this happened. I completely admit that I only have myself to blame but all the factors considered, it just doesn't feel right not to appeal. Also don't want to make it sound like the man on the other side was to blame, he was very polite and does not deserve to be dragged into this mess.

Noted on your adivse for doing monetary things over the phone Can you elaborate on what you meant by three figure sum? That's a lot more than what I am expecting and sounds worrying

 

[Estelle]

If you were issued with a Penalty Fare (as the title suggests) this wouldn't appear to be correct.

I would argue the following rule should apply:



My understanding is that the train company can either charge you an excess fare or they can prosecute you, which could result in a fine if you were found guilty.

I'm surprised Google said that. Do you have a source for Google saying this? Not that it matters either what Google say, or websites found through a Google search, say. What matters is what the relevant laws , rules and conditions say.

If you were issued with a Penalty Fare, this is not actually a fine; it is a higher than normal fare issued to people who make a mistake under certain circumstances, that I appreciate feels like a fine, but it's actually something else.

16-25 Railcards can be used at any time, except for the £12 minimum fare before 10am on weekdays during September to June (inclusive).

https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/8/



It probably won't be "easy" and the member of staff who stopped you probably won't have access to CCTV.

At my workplace only a small proportion of people have access to CCTV.

You called West Midlands Trains (the train company who have taken over the franchise previously held by London Midland)? They should have given you a copy. It may be worth having that telephone call again and record it. I'd also email them so there is a record of the correspondence.

Have you actually paid it? My advice is to pay it ASAP (if you have not already done so) but to both appeal it and escalate the matter to Transport Focus, the Department for Transport, the Office of Road & Rail, and your MP.

Thank you for the detailed help Yorkie! I do mean a Penalty Fare when I said fine, sorry for not being very clear.

I believe I saw the law's original intention in DfT report when they renewed the penalty fare appeal process/the rules, but don't think it is in the actual legislation, rules or conditions, more like the forewords; you're right, probably irrelevant. I saw the £12 minimum fare on the railcard afterwards when I did some research into it, but this is news to me.

I would have thought that CCTV isn't easily accessible either, come to think of it I was thrown a few empty threats. Any idea under what circumstances can companies share CCTV footage? More importantly, is this one of them or is the threat completely empty?

I will try contacting the train company again by phone and record it this time. They don't have an email address so I have completed an online form, have't heard anything yet. Also thinking of going down the Freedom of Information route if they can't find anything. If the scheme isn't approved then I presume they don't have a case to be issuing penalty fares in the first place? I haven't paid the penalty fare yet, worrying that if I do it will take even longer to try and get it back. I do still have a bit of time until it's due. Glad you agree that it is worth appealing, but worried that if it falls through, they will go down the prosecution route.

 

[IanXC]

If you wish to record a telephone call you need to state that at the start of the call, as the company/agent may object and terminate the call. Whether that is right wrong or indifferent is neither here nor there, but you really shouldn't record the call without them being made aware.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Thanks for helping Gareth. I saw the £12 minimum fare rule too when I did some research after. Definitely wasn't aware of it before this happened. I completely admit that I only have myself to blame but all the factors considered, it just doesn't feel right not to appeal. Also don't want to make it sound like the man on the other side was to blame, he was very polite and does not deserve to be dragged into this mess.

Noted on your adivse for doing monetary things over the phone Can you elaborate on what you meant by three figure sum? That's a lot more than what I am expecting and sounds worrying

How much is the fine you have been issued with?

 

[najaB]

I showed my ticket to the operator at station A and he let me through. I got off at station B around 09am and was pulled aside when I was trying to activate my ticket, at which point I was told and learnt my ticket is invalid.

Beware of challenging the Penalty Fare too aggressively - you boarded a train without a valid ticket and so could face a Byelaw 18 prosecution. Mobile tickets must be activated before boarding.

 

[Estelle]

If you wish to record a telephone call you need to state that at the start of the call, as the company/agent may object and terminate the call. Whether that is right wrong or indifferent is neither here nor there, but you really shouldn't record the call without them being made aware.

Noted, thank you for the heads up . I will let them know first, if they object and still can't provide an email address, then maybe I do have to submit a Freedom of Information request. Do you guys think that's too far a step to take?

 

[Estelle]

How much is the fine you have been issued with?

The fine is £20.

 

[Estelle]

Beware of challenging the Penalty Fare too aggressively - you boarded a train without a valid ticket and so could face a Byelaw 18 prosecution. Mobile tickets must be activated before boarding.

Thanks for the advice - it is my fault for not activating the ticket, thought it's okay not to until I actually need it to use at the gates. Never thought it will get me a penalty fare when I did buy a ticket . Think I will only challenge and appeal it by asking for their discretion and try to prove that it wasn't intentional.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The fine is £20.

OK - this is a Penalty Fare and not a fine.

There are two points to consider here:

1) As Yorkie says, you may not have been liable for a Penalty Fare as you may have had a ticket.

2) However, you did not have a valid ticket on your journey, as it was not activated when you boarded. You must activate it before you board, or pass a gateline. You, by your own admission, did not do this. This is a slam dunk offence under the Railway Byelaws that the train company could easily take you to court for and win.

My advice - pay the £20 and chalk it up to experience rather than investing your time and efforts in a challenge that may well end up in court, costing you a lot more.

 

[221129]

Noted, thank you for the heads up . I will let them know first, if they object and still can't provide an email address, then maybe I do have to submit a Freedom of Information request. Do you guys think that's too far a step to take?

Freedom of Information Act doesn't apply to private companies. You NEED to pay it now and then appeal otherwise it will just go up and up or can be withdrawn and a summons issued.

 

[Estelle]

OK - this is a Penalty Fare and not a fine.

There are two points to consider here:

1) As Yorkie says, you may not have been liable for a Penalty Fare as you may have had a ticket.

2) However, you did not have a valid ticket on your journey, as it was not activated when you boarded. You must activate it before you board, or pass a gateline. You, by your own admission, did not do this. This is a slam dunk offence under the Railway Byelaws that the train company could easily take you to court for and win.

My advice - pay the £20 and chalk it up to experience rather than investing your time and efforts in a challenge that may well end up in court, costing you a lot more.

Thanks for the advice and taking your time to look into this. So do you think it's worth appealing at all? Is it likely that if the first stage of appeal falls through, it will end up in court? The train companies earn a nice sum from the penalty fare by charging people who unknowingly made a mistake. I want to at least raise this with somebody, something doesn't feel right here Is writing to the train company/Network Rail/ORR or my local MP a good way to raise this?

 

[221129]

OK - this is a Penalty Fare and not a fine.

There are two points to consider here:

1) As Yorkie says, you may not have been liable for a Penalty Fare as you may have had a ticket.

2) However, you did not have a valid ticket on your journey, as it was not activated when you boarded. You must activate it before you board, or pass a gateline. You, by your own admission, did not do this. This is a slam dunk offence under the Railway Byelaws that the train company could easily take you to court for and win.

My advice - pay the £20 and chalk it up to experience rather than investing your time and efforts in a challenge that may well end up in court, costing you a lot more.

The ticket was not valid as it wasn't activated so therefore in my opinion a Penalty Fare is appropriate. I second the advice at the bottom of this post.

 

[221129]

Thanks for the advice and taking your time to look into this. So do you think it's worth appealing at all? Is it likely that if the first stage of appeal falls through, it will end up in court? The train companies earn a nice sum from the penalty fare by charging people who unknowingly made a mistake. I want to at least raise this with somebody, something doesn't feel right here Is writing to the train company/Network Rail/ORR or my local MP a good way to raise this?

Pay it first and then appeal or raise it with whoever. But it needs to be paid within 21 days to avoid more fees.

 

[Estelle]

Pay it first and then appeal or raise it with whoever. But it needs to be paid within 21 days to avoid more fees.

Thanks for the advices. I think if I do appeal, they pause the 21 days deadline until the outcome comes out. Still worried that I will be prosecuted and end up with an even bigger sum to pay if the appeal falls through though . I think I need some help deciding whether appealing is the best way forward or just feed it back to the relevant body.

 

[221129]

Thanks for the advices. I think if I do appeal, they pause the 21 days deadline until the outcome comes out. Still worried that I will be prosecuted and end up with an even bigger sum to pay if the appeal falls through though . I think I need some help deciding whether appealing is the best way forward or just feed it back to the relevant body.

That is not the case. Appealing does NOT stop the 21days.

 

[mikeg]

Would this penalty fare fall foul of the penalty fare rules? The question is in essence one of a time restriction provided the OP had their railcard on them and it was the appropriate railcard:

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

Does this count as a published restriction? Of course it doesn't help that the conditions have changed since the penalty fare rules were brought in but I believe the general rule still applies.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the advice - it is my fault for not activating the ticket, thought it's okay not to until I actually need it to use at the gates....

I understand that the reason you were given a Penalty Fare was because it was a sort of ticket that needs to be activated for it to become valid and you did not do this (and, the reason it would not activate is because of the minimum fare issue). If it was a paper ticket, I believe an excess fare would have been appropriate.

As it was a non-activated mobile ticket, a Penalty Fare can be charged, or even a prosecution. It can be very dangerous to use mobile tickets without fully understanding them and complying with them, due to the threat of prosecution.

Never thought it will get me a penalty fare when I did buy a ticket . Think I will only challenge and appeal it by asking for their discretion and try to prove that it wasn't intentional.

Penalty Fares are for unintentional mistakes. They are not an accusation of intentional fare evasion. For example, Chiltern (who run a PF scheme under the same legislation as West Midlands Trains) state:

A Penalty Fare is a charge that Chiltern Railways is allowed
to make under the Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine, and
anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding,
or attempting to avoid, paying their fare.

‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter: it is a criminal
offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders.

Would this penalty fare fall foul of the penalty fare rules? The question is in essence one of a time restriction provided the OP had their railcard on them and it was the appropriate railcard:

Does this count as a published restriction? Of course it doesn't help that the conditions have changed since the penalty fare rules were brought in but I believe the general rule still applies.

I think that, because it was not activated, and there is a requirement to activate, I think it is within the rules.

In effect, the PF is not because of the time restriction; it is because the ticket was not activated (and the reason it could not be activated is due to the time restriction).

 

[221129]

Would this penalty fare fall foul of the penalty fare rules? The question is in essence one of a time restriction provided the OP had their railcard on them and it was the appropriate railcard:



Does this count as a published restriction? Of course it doesn't help that the conditions have changed since the penalty fare rules were brought in but I believe the general rule still applies.

The ticket wasn't activated either though...

 

[mikeg]

Ah that changes things then...

 

[najaB]

The train companies earn a nice sum from the penalty fare by charging people who unknowingly made a mistake.

They don't really.

 

[Estelle]

That is not the case. Appealing does NOT stop the 21days.

Oh I thought that was brought in when the DfT reviewed the appeal process through the public consultation in 2016? Is that not implemented?

 

[221129]

Oh I thought that was brought in when the DfT reviewed the appeal process through the public consultation in 2016? Is that not implemented?

No. If you do not pay within 21 days additional charges will be added.

 

[Estelle]

I understand that the reason you were given a Penalty Fare was because it was a sort of ticket that needs to be activated for it to become valid and you did not do this (and, the reason it would not activate is because of the minimum fare issue). If it was a paper ticket, I believe an excess fare would have been appropriate.

As it was a non-activated mobile ticket, a Penalty Fare can be charged, or even a prosecution. It can be very dangerous to use mobile tickets without fully understanding them and complying with them, due to the threat of prosecution.
Penalty Fares are for unintentional mistakes. They are not an accusation of intentional fare evasion. For example, Chiltern (who run a PF scheme under the same legislation as West Midlands Trains) state:



I think that, because it was not activated, and there is a requirement to activate, I think it is within the rules.

In effect, the PF is not because of the time restriction; it is because the ticket was not activated (and the reason it could not be activated is due to the time restriction).

Thanks for explaining further. You guys have been great help! I did not know that penalty fares are for unintentional mistakes, how silly of me to have ended up in a situation where I am penalised for these mistakes. It is a shame to hear that train companies are allowed to charge people for not knowing the full set of rules too. £20 might not seem much but it is still 10 times the original ticket price, I can only imagine what others have been paying for longer journeys. Certainly in my case, I feel that I was mislead by the mobile app. Maybe I should just stick with paper tickets

I get the general sense that you guys think if I appeal I will lose anyway? Is it not worth trying?

 

[gray1404]

I would strongly advise you to pay the £20 here. You might be able to get the train company you got the ticket from to refund it because of the problems but that is a separate matter. On the Penalty Fare notice you have received what is the reason stated for issuing the notice?

If you pay the penalty fare first and then appeal, I think it would be correct that the worst that could happen then is you loose the appeal. It would be very bad form for them to cancel and otherwise paid Penalty Fare and refund you just because you appeal and they don't like it. I don't think the rules allow them to do this. Penalty Fares can be canceled though under certain circumstances. If you are going to appeal though you have to have valid grounds for appealing.

 

[Estelle]

Would this penalty fare fall foul of the penalty fare rules? The question is in essence one of a time restriction provided the OP had their railcard on them and it was the appropriate railcard:



Does this count as a published restriction? Of course it doesn't help that the conditions have changed since the penalty fare rules were brought in but I believe the general rule still applies.

Thanks for trying to help! Honestly, your comment has lost me a little but glad others helped clarify. Appreciated it!

 

[najaB]

£20 might not seem much but it is still 10 times the original ticket price

But only £8 more than you should have paid for a journey at that time.

 

[yorkie]

But only £8 more than you should have paid for a journey at that time.

Unless I've missed it, we don't know what the journey was, so we don't know the undiscounted fare.