Penalty fare issued 15 seconds into journey as asking for ticket

[bnm]

cumfy as I see it, you walked past an open ticket office and a TVM and boarded a train in a penalty fare area and you got a penalty fare. Surprised much?

Schadenfreude much? :roll:

 

[anme]

Schadenfreude much? :roll:

Sadly, that's why most posters seem to come to this forum.

 

[jon0844]

If you were so late that you had to take a train without buying a ticket first, a penalty fare seems like a perfectly fair price to pay. Why complain?

Not being able to wait for a later train isn't the fault of the railway.

 

[najaB]

Schadenfreude much? :roll:

As I posted, I have empathy for the financial penalty.

What I don't have is sympathy for the OP's tantrum and apparent refusal to accept responsibility for their actions. They have selectively misquoted random pages from the NRE website to attempt to make it the railway's fault that they walked past the ticket office and ticket machine.

 

[Haydn1971]

If you were so late that you had to take a train without buying a ticket first, a penalty fare seems like a perfectly fair price to pay. Why complain? Not being able to wait for a later train isn't the fault of the railway.

Missing my point, some operators are happy to sell you the cheapest fair 99% of the time, at the 1% of the time it's unfair to pull out the "you need a ticket to ride bylaw", and indeed if you are familiar with buying tickets on trains with one operator, why is that fair to be then punished when doing the same on another operator.

Also, there may not be another train - most of the UK away from the main lines and London don't have a multiple train per hour service.

 

[bb21]

Missing my point, some operators are happy to sell you the cheapest fair 99% of the time, at the 1% of the time it's unfair to pull out the "you need a ticket to ride bylaw", and indeed if you are familiar with buying tickets on trains with one operator, why is that fair to be then punished when doing the same on another operator.

Also, there may not be another train - most of the UK away from the main lines and London don't have a multiple train per hour service.

The alternative is for the rules to be enforced to the letter 100% of the time, which I must say would address the "inconsistency" issue, however I doubt many people who made genuine mistakes and were let off on discretion would be happy about that.

Unfortunately discretion is all it is, you can't ask for it and it may or may not be shown. The only way to ensure complete consistency is to do without it.

So if I had let the RP pass as he was in fact doing would I not have been able to buy a ticket from the guard ?

Oh and what happens if a passenger steadfastly claims they got on at the first non-PF station prior to their station ?

If caught lying, that is potentially a Regulation of Railways Act offence, conviction under which would carry a criminal record. (Anyone willing to be the guinea pig?)

(Yes, I know there will be debates on whether there were any fare evaded if the origin station were stated as one further back on the line, but what does not change is that you got on without paying at the first opportunity, so instead of a Penalty Fare, you will almost certain be looking at a Byelaw prosecution with much bigger fines.)

 

[island]

I just caught the 1304 from Bradford on Avon to Bristol which was running about 3 minutes late.
2 carriages, sat down straightaway halfway down first carriage and immediately saw train staff coming down the carriage he seemed to be walking past but I was geting my wallet out and managed to catch his attention and asked for a cheap day return to Oldfield Park, about 15 seconds after the train had set off from BOA.

He spoke vey quietly and seemed to say somethng about a penalty fare.
I had to clarify what he was saying and really took 2-3 attempts to clarify he was charging me a penalty fare.
Baically he didnt dispute that I was running late and purchasing a ticket at the first opportunity.
Tough. 20 quid thanks.

Is it really supposed to work like this ?
Whats the point of the stuff on nationalrail.co.uk saying buying on train at 1st opportunity is ok ?

You were not purchasing a ticket at your first opportunity. Your first opportunity was at Bradford station, which you chose not to take. Your arrival at the station without sufficient time to buy a ticket does not mean you did not have an opportunity, in the eyes of the law, to do so. Joining a train without a ticket at a station with ticketing facilities is a criminal offence. As the Authorised Collector believed you had made a genuine mistake, you were dealt with in the standard way to deal with passengers who have made a genuine mistake, which is by way of a Penalty Fare. Had he believed you intended to avoid payment or were chancing your arm, he could have reported you for Prosecution.

He probably spoke quietly so as not to cause you embarrassment in front of other travellers.

I am not aware of a page on nationalrail.co.uk which says you may buy on the train if there are ticketing facilities at your starting station, so perhaps you could link that for us?

 

[cumfy]

I am not aware of a page on nationalrail.co.uk which says you may buy on the train if there are ticketing facilities at your starting station, so perhaps you could link that for us?

I provided a link earlier in the thread the relevant part is:

How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?
To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.


The keyword being unable of course.
I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.

Another relevant part of that page is:

The Penalty Fares System is designed to protect [sic ]the majority of customers from the minority of people who travel without a valid ticket for the journey they are making.


The direct inference is that the RP believed I was in fact not going to pay but for his intercession. Or possibly he simply has targets to meet.

I am just being called a liar and am subsidising genuine fare-dodgers.

On another note, I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!

 

[RJ]

You were able to buy a ticket before boarding a train, but chose not to, because the train was imminnent. Unable to buy a ticket means there are no appropriate facilities to allow you to do so.

I'm not saying you're an opportunist - I believe the contrary. But your actions are the same as what an opportunist would undertake and there are laws in place that forbid it. The railway has a duty to protect itself against opportunism. Sometimes well meaning people get caught in the net, but have no recourse. It's unfortunate, sometimes I wish I could buy on board if I arrive at a station late. In fact, I will ask the guard before boarding and 9 times out of 10 they will be fine with it. If not, I'll buy a ticket and wait for the next train.

Opportunists hope the guard doesn't make it through the train, so by taking a seat that is not close to where the guard is, I don't think they're especially likely to be sympathetic.

 

[najaB]

I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.

Since the ticket office was open, it was possible for you to purchase a ticket. The situation that your quoted text describes is when there is no open ticket office or working TVM/PERTIS machine.

 

[CC 72100]

If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.
[/B]

This 'unable to do so' is nothing to do with factors inside your control (ie. the time you turn before your train is due), but applies to the ability of the railway to offer ticket purchasing facilities. Which they do at Bradford-on-Avon - at that time of day a TVM and a ticket office.

I note that you say in your opening post that the train was 3 minutes late. What did you arrive at the station in order to catch this service? Surely if you had arrived with 40 seconds until scheduled departure then you would have had ample time to purchase a ticket if that was the train you were intending on catching, given that you now have between 3 and 4 minute until your train arrives?

 

[Via Bank]

I provided a link earlier in the thread the relevant part is:

How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?
To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.


The keyword being unable of course.
I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.

You would have been able to purchase a ticket and catch the train if you had turned up at the station on time, which isn't the railway's fault.

Pay up and don't do it again. If you think the wording of the PF page is confusing then you're welcome to complain to the train company, but unfortunately you are unlikely to receive much sympathy.

 

[Mojo]

The direct inference is that the RP believed I was in fact not going to pay but for his intercession.

If that were the case then the correct course of action would have been for him to make a report to the Great Western prosecutions department, not issue a Penalty fare.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.

That was your fault for being late. Had you arrived in good time, you would've been able. This is not down to the TOC who provided the necessary facilities for you to purchase the ticket. Please stop with the faux outrage and pay up. This is your fault not the TOC's

On another note, I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!

Not been to the station in question, but there is usually at least one notice on there.

 

[DaleCooper]

This view on google shows something that could be a penalty fare notice although to be fair it could be something else or out of date.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3...m4!1e1!3m2!1sHqB9yw4O7xpwPC-NE3XaQw!2e0?hl=en

 

[najaB]

On another note, I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!

This is hardly definitive as things may have changed since the Street View car was in that direction, but if you zoom in this Google Street View image the poster to the right of the entrance looks amazingly similar to this penalty fare warning poster:

 

[edwin_m]

Oh and what happens if a passenger steadfastly claims they got on at the first non-PF station prior to their station ?

The RPI probably went down the train after that station too, asking if anyone wanted tickets and selling them without penalty. So if someone claimed after Bradford-on-Avon to have joined at that station then they would also have failed to pay their fare at the first opportunity. Presumably if the hypothetical station is outside the PF area the TOC couldn't then impose a PF but would potentially be bringing a prosecution on grounds of intent to avoid payment.

 

[Flamingo]

The posters are there. I can't remember off the top of my head where, but I've seen them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think in summary, the OP was correctly issued a PF. All requirements for issuing a PF were met.

Their only real complaint is that on previous occasions when they and others should have been issued a PF this has not happened.

 

[NSEFAN]

Their only real complaint is that on previous occasions when they and others should have been issued a PF this has not happened.

Agreed. I believe Northern are having similar issues with their "fixed penalty" notices. Consistency in enforcement might help avoid confusion for the innocent passenger and also remove potential excuse from someone trying it on.

 

[Parham Wood]

If you were not aware of the rules and regulations you could interpret the last part of Cumfy's link in this way; you arrive late at the station therefore do not have an time (opportunity which is not defined as to its exact meaning) to buy a ticket from the ticket office or machine so you opt to buy from the conductor as the information page seems to imply is possible. We all know this is not the correct interpretation but it is one. Of course the link is only to an information page and not to the law which would override the information page. Perhaps the page is poorly worded.

 

[najaB]

If you were not aware of the rules and regulations you could interpret the last part of Cumfy's link in this way; you arrive late at the station therefore do not have an time (opportunity which is not defined as to its exact meaning) to buy a ticket from the ticket office or machine so you opt to buy from the conductor as the information page seems to imply is possible.

Which I might agree with, except for the word 'must' in the first sentence. There aren't many rules/regulations that I know of that say you must do something unless you don't want to or don't have time to. Also, the third paragraph says you can buy on the train only if unable to purchase a permit to travel.

We all know this is not the correct interpretation but it is one. Of course the link is only to an information page and not to the law which would override the information page. Perhaps the page is poorly worded.

Perhaps, can you suggest a wording that wouldn't be possible to be misconstrued?

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps, can you suggest a wording that wouldn't be possible to be misconstrued?

"If ticket issuing facilities are available at the station at the time of boarding, then you must purchase a ticket before boarding the train. If no ticket issuing facilities are available at the station but a Permit to Travel machine is available, then you must purchase a Permit to Travel before boarding the train. Anyone failing to do so when facilities are available will be liable to pay a Penalty Fare. Anyone failing to do so with intent to avoid payment may be subject to prosecution. "

 

[najaB]

"If ticket issuing facilities are available at the station at the time of boarding, then you must purchase a ticket before boarding the train. If no ticket issuing facilities are available at the station but a Permit to Travel machine is available, then you must purchase a Permit to Travel before boarding the train. Anyone failing to do so when facilities are available will be liable to pay a Penalty Fare. Anyone failing to do so with intent to avoid payment may be subject to prosecution. "

Interestingly, that's almost the same as what it says on the posters.

 

[DaleCooper]

No matter how it's worded if someone is determined to misintepret it they will find a way.

 

[EM2]

If you were not aware of the rules and regulations you could interpret the last part of Cumfy's link in this way; you arrive late at the station therefore do not have an time (opportunity which is not defined as to its exact meaning) to buy a ticket from the ticket office or machine so you opt to buy from the conductor as the information page seems to imply is possible. We all know this is not the correct interpretation but it is one. Of course the link is only to an information page and not to the law which would override the information page. Perhaps the page is poorly worded.

It says To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.
That's it. You must.

It then says If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

Not 'unable to do so before boarding the train on which you wish to travel', just 'unable to do so'.
'Unable' means 'no facility to do so, or no capability to do so', not 'no time to do so'.

It then says 'If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.

The point about 'unable' being relevant again here.

 

[Flamingo]

No matter how it's worded if someone is determined to misintepret it they will find a way.

If it said "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRAVELLING WITHOUT BUYING A TICKET FIRST!!!" in yellow letters on a black background on a 20ftx10ft billboard outside every station entrance people would
a. claim they did not notice it
and/or
b. think "It couldn't possibly apply to me"

 

[Via Bank]

How about a massive headline saying "no ticket, no travel!"

It should probably also mention that you need to leave enough time to queue for a ticket (at least five minutes.)

 

[RJ]

How about a massive headline saying "no ticket, no travel!"

It should probably also mention that you need to leave enough time to queue for a ticket (at least five minutes.)

That can vary though. I can go for a few minutes without any custom, then have a series of railcards, changeovers and Advance tickets to do in quick succession. Before you know it, queue is out of the door...

 

[DaleCooper]

If it said "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRAVELLING WITHOUT BUYING A TICKET FIRST!!!" in yellow letters on a black background on a 20ftx10ft billboard outside every station entrance people would
a. claim they did not notice it
and/or
b. think "It couldn't possibly apply to me"

Judging from some of the posters on here they would probably go for a and b and think up a c and a d. How about yellow/black colour blindness?

 

[cumfy]

I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!


This is hardly definitive as things may have changed since the Street View car was in that direction, but if you zoom in this Google Street View image the poster to the right of the entrance looks amazingly similar to this penalty fare warning poster::

So neurons all over your brain, clearly.